Season 5, Episode 9: Navigating the Inns of Court Bar Course Scholarships: Ellie Stubley's Journey

Our Episode Transcripts are produced by Descript. Some words/dialogue may not be transcribed with 100% accuracy.

Ellie: [00:00:00] Thanks for joining us for this episode of Law Talks and today I'm joined with Katie, one of our co-founders, um, on the podcast and she's really kindly agreed to come back to talk with me about Bar Course scholarships. So yeah, I'll hand over to Katie.

Katie: Hi Ellie. Thank you so much for having me back. I am honored that you invited me to host this effort.

So, so to start, start off with, could you just tell me what are the scholarships?

Ellie: Yep. So I feel like the clue is slightly in the name. When you're applying for the bar course. No matter which provider you're thinking of, the Inns of Court offer Bar Course scholarships to help not usually fund the whole course of the cost of the course, but to help with some of the costs.

And if the kind of term Inns of court is unfamiliar, there's four Inns of court and that all based in London. And yeah, you essentially need to pick one to apply to. [00:01:00] Fill out all your details. It's very similar to kind of similar timing and quite similar to actually applying for the bar course and if you, um, they are relatively competitive, but, uh, if you're award won, then it helps with the cost, which is a huge benefit because I think anyone interested in studying uh, the bar course, it's pretty expensive.

Um, particularly if you wanna do it in person in London. So, um, yeah, I applied around this time last year.

Katie: Thank you so much. That was such a good overview of just kind of the whole process. And you mentioned there that you applied yourself, mm-hmm. Did you say around this time last year?

Ellie: Yeah.

Katie: Or did I make that up?

Ellie: No, no. I did, I think I, like, maybe from the start of September I started thinking about my application. Okay. And yeah, it, it's kind of. I mean, I can, I can give like the exact dates, but yeah, basically around this time last year.

Katie: Okay. And um, so when you [00:02:00] started looking and you were looking to apply, what, which of the Inns of courts did you apply to and how did you kind of decide how to even start the application process?

Ellie: Yeah. Um, that honestly was, I asked. 'cause I was studying, um, undergrad law at the time. I asked people in the year above who I knew, I say year above. They had just graduated last year and I knew that they had applied. And I remember one of them saying to me honestly, the like, choosing which ends of court can sometimes be the most stressful part of it.

I don't know if, I think I found other parts quite stressful, but it definitely. It feels like quite panicked. 'cause all of the websites that talk about the Barko scholarship are really clear that you, you can only apply to one ends of court. And obviously if most of the time I think when people apply, they're not yet a member of the, um, ends of court.

So if you. Actually apply. That's kind of also like committing yourself to that end, which is exciting. But I think it can feel like in your final [00:03:00] year of law school, almost quite early to, to be making that decision. So as I said, I, I kind of can give the exact dates like the, the. Portal to apply for bar scholarships opened yesterday, so around like the 23rd of September for those listening to this episode.

I know it's coming out at the end of September, but um, then the deadline for applying is around the sort of 7th of November. So you do have a long time. So for one of them it's not what I did, but, uh, one recommendation I got for choosing which ends of court is actually just to wait until about now and.

On their websites, you can look at all the different application, uh, forms and sort of decide from the form what feels. Sort of suits you best, what sort of seems like the kind of questions that you are comfortable answering. 'cause it might just be a case then of it gives you a bit of a flavor of the ends of court, or at least how they are sort of applying the criteria of the scholarship.

Another way you can do it is and I appreciate, I'm kind of giving general advice and I will say [00:04:00] how I actually did it, but it, mine's maybe, I don't know if I'd recommend it, but, um. You can go on, like the chamber student has a really great, great table and it compares the different ends and it doesn't just compare their scholarships, which I think sometimes it can be really tempting, uh, just to look at.

You can look at things like, first of all, the success rate they, they publish. Um, how many people get interview, how many people get offers compared to how many have applied? They also talk about like their minimum award. So there's a real range. For example, middle, which is where I applied their like lower end is 1000 pounds, whereas they think grays is more like 5,000.

Um. And after that it's means tested. So you know, you could look at sort of that aspect. Some people obviously then look at the maximum awarded or around the maximum awarded. So you can be really clinical and just look at the scholarships. But the chamber student actually considers like the differences between the ends of court.

And I think like on reflection, the fact that you are then kind of going to be joining in [00:05:00] permanently, it's not just, uh, for the scholarship. I think it's really good to consider that Ann. Actually, um, compare what you might, what you might prefer between the inns. I also think there is an element where you don't wanna overstress about it and overthink that all from different work experience.

I visited I think at least three of the inns, and they're all lovely. The people that were really nice. Like the, all the libraries were gorgeous, so I don't think it's kind of, this should be the super, super stressful decision. But actually for me, um, it was more of a personal decision where I had one particular many Pupilage that I just loved and I loved the person that I was the barrister that I was paired with, who was really, uh, acted as such a mentor on that week.

And they were a member of Middle Temple. And they took me there and kind of spoke about it. And really, I don't know if that was, I'm sure that actually wasn't their aim, but they kind of really sold it to me. Talked about the support you get when you're applying for Pupilage. Discussed the sort of different [00:06:00] trading days that they offer and I'm sure that it's true for all of the ends.

But I think just that like personal experience for me when I was trying to be really clinical and deciding it was just like my mind kept going back to middle. But to really show how much, like out of. At my college, I think all of the aspiring barristers applied to completely different ends. So, um, you can't really look at it as in like, which one's gonna be the best option.

You have to think about it, like, what feels like it will suit me or what fits best to my particular circumstances. So yeah, so I think I also kinda answered, I applied to Middle Temple and I'm really happy with my decision, but I'm sure I would been also really happy at any of the other three if I, uh, were so lucky to have got a scholarship at them.

Katie: That's such helpful advice. I think obviously having that personal connection, um, and just having a conversation with someone who's actually, you know, being through the process of, you know, being [00:07:00] part of that in mm-hmm. Just must be very helpful and. Important points, like in terms of the amounts that are offered, things like that.

Obviously everyone's circumstances will be different, so Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine there's quite a lot to, but it's very exciting that you've kind of made that decision and. Also very exciting that you've, you've got your scholarship for the bar course, which is brilliant.

Ellie: Yeah. I'm sure I would not be recording this episode if I, if I hadn't got one, but I would've been interviewing someone else.

But actually I, I realized I was gonna, one thing that I was gonna mention was when you asked me sort of about timeline. I guess 'cause I, I feel like I just listed so many different things to think about. I definitely, like, this is actually probably, I know that this episode is coming out end of September, but I was kind of thinking about it in August and throughout September, I guess.

So the, [00:08:00] when they, like when the application portal was opened, I was already settled on middle. But, um, that was just because I felt for those people like me who were still at law school, the application was quite time consuming. So if you're listening to this at the end of September and thinking, oh, I have till the 7th of November to apply, you're so right.

You do have that time, but I would probably like at least start now. So you have all that time for the things that take way longer, like all the cutting and making sure that you're perfectly in the word count, and it's like the best version of the application you could do.

Katie: That's super helpful and it actually leads me on to my next question, um, which is sort of just a bit more application itself and what it involve. I know you mentioned that obviously the different ends of course will have slightly different applications. Your experience, what, what was that process like?

Ellie: Yeah, I think [00:09:00] the best way to describe it because there's not like a huge point in getting to like really detailed specifics because they will change year on year. But actually I found it really similar to applying for many Pupillages where instead of like a cover letter in cv, they had an application form.

Like I felt that most of the questions that were asked and my friends who had applied to different ends, I think it's similar, they. They probably be, would be quite familiar with like an aspiring barrister at law school. The kind of, I mean, some of the most classic is kind of, you know, why do you wanna be a barrister?

That sort of question. They're not going necessarily for the super obscure, you know, completely throw you questions. I think really, I, I felt the application really was just they wanted to get to know you a bit. Get to know like your aspirations, your interests and you know, it's a chance to demonstrate your interest.

Obviously, but also you are interested in becoming a barrister. So I guess like when thinking about what the application [00:10:00] process involved, I actually ended up looking back at just loads of my previous applications. So for minis, I think for kind of anything that I did either before or at, at my, like law undergrad where I was applying for something competitive to do with.

Something to do with like, as an aspiring barrister or maybe even like mooting competitions. I looked at kind of all the stuff that I'd written about. And like I think I collated them all together. I'm quite Katie, you know me. Like I'm quite, um, like, I like to be organized, so I think I like wrote all the potential answers and bullet points and then picked what I thought was the strongest.

But I think the application does also involve. A bit of a, it's hard to describe it, which I mean, you are working at Clifford Chance, you definitely understand. It's a real sell yourself, which can be hard, I think sometimes like for minis when I've done cover letters, it can be more like you're kind of saying why you just are so interested in that chambers, whereas the flip and [00:11:00] then you kind of weave in like, and I'm also, I really wanna do this.

I'm so passionate. Whereas, um. I think I had to like not be embarrassed about really putting in the like, cell factor on the application process because it's supposed to be like showing why you would be a good like a good choice to be chosen as a scholar. So I think, yeah, just thinking about like what it involved, I really had to be like, no, like do you put, don't say that you are, um.

Not that anyone would, but I think it's that kind of example, like, don't say you're pretty good at something if you know that you are, um, particularly skilled at something, just put it in there and, and don't be kind of embarrassed that it feels just like a self-promotion. But yeah, and it took me way long as I, as I said, it took me a lot longer than I thought because I, I guess it's that thing where it had actually been a while since I had done such a long application.

Um. And when I had to really first, I mean, first of all you have to put all your like education down, those kind of things. And I feel like I haven't done that since maybe like ucas, that kind of thing. [00:12:00] So, uh, that's what I mean. It was like definitely more time consuming. And there were always bits that like for different people at different.

Depending how your university does stuff, you have to put down your grades and things and I had to like request my transcripts and, and stuff like that. So yeah, it was, it was pretty time consuming and I definitely was like a real thought of revoking exercise and probably an application that I put the most time into.

I think out of like all the different, uh, I feel like law students are always doing applications, but yeah, it was, it was very time. Consuming, but not, I would say like they're, they're not there to completely throw you at.

Katie: Super helpful. And it's so true that law students are always doing applications

Ellie: Always.

Katie: But I also think just from listening to you speak about the process, obviously an application, probably if you are a law student or you know, sort of. Any stage between a level and uni. You've probably done a form of [00:13:00] application form before, before, but it's a really good point about the sort of difference between saying, oh, this is why I'm interested, and, you know, examples of how you're good to mm-hmm.

Slightly more focused on the selling yourself side of things. And it, it can be thing that people struggle with like especially if it's not something that comes naturally to you. And you know, it's a fine line between, you don't wanna come across as arrogant, but equally, if you are good at something, you are absolutely right.

Like. Don't say you're pretty good if you are excellent at something and you've got examples to show that. So I think that's a really good piece of advice.

Ellie: I think I also just like jumping off what you're saying there, I brought back the memory. I remember being I also don't know where this came from.

I think it was probably just like for. They're just stressed. But I was, um, worried that my application, like when I wrote it, I started off being like, well, I'm really going to talk about my specific [00:14:00] interests. And then I felt like, for example, I, I'm thinking of the kind of things I talked about. You know, I had just done a like legal research paper thing into like prostitution laws.

And then something else I talked about like another. I mean, what I would consider like a feminist issue, but linked to the law. So I think then I, I was worried at a point that, you know, I hadn't gone for the like black letter law options, and I had a moment being like, oh, for this kind of application is, should I be talking?

Try and weave something commercial in there, even though maybe it's not my, my strength. So yeah, I think, I guess I'm, I hope not everyone would have that worry that I did, but definitely as well as like not being afraid of staying what you're good at, like definitely stick with what you actually like, you know, as I think we're gonna talk about, there's an interview stage.

You need to really put your genuine self forward and, and not sort of worry that you are. I guess I, maybe I was thinking, I was like kind of typecasting myself into like a sandbox, a certain type of like future lawyer. But, um, yeah, [00:15:00] I think that was something I was worried around the application, which luckily didn't really, um, like come to anything.

So, so I would say, yeah, my advice would be not to worry about, um, what you are talking about. Like if it, if they've asked you a question about what you're interested in to do with the law just go with your actual, like genuine answer because probably. I mean, I felt like for me then the actual quality of my answer was, was better because, um, I was more confident talking about it.

Katie: No, that's just what I was thinking. Like inevitably if you are talking about something that's a real interest, it's just gonna be easier to write about than it is kind of forcing like an answer about something that you are, you know, maybe are interested in, but not as much. Just a much harder process. So it is very good to know that that didn't present a problem for you.

Yeah. And as you mentioned, the interview [00:16:00] obviously is the next stage. Mm-hmm. I was just wondering if you could kind of talk about what the inter interview process was like and that sort of stage of the application.

Ellie: Yeah, of course. I think this is one where the differences in the Inns of Court probably comes through the strongest in the application process.

So, for example, middle Temple they interview, well, they say they try to interview all the applicants. So hearing that you are going to be interviewed doesn't necessarily reflect, uh, or indicate how you're doing in the application process. 'cause they try to interview everybody. And that also means the interviews are incredibly short.

They're about 15 minutes. So it was very different from, I mean, the, I guess the other times I've been interviewed was like for undergrad law and there was lots of interviews and I think they were more like 30 minutes. So it was quite kind of unique. Unique experience. So I guess my, my first sort of point there would be, have a look at the different interviews [00:17:00] because I know, for example, example Lincoln definitely doesn't interview everybody.

It's more of a like application process. Second stages of the interview, final stages if you find out, you, you got it. So again, if you wanna be tactical, if you know that you are, you just, wow. Interview and you are the most kind of, persuasive person ever. You might want to, you could like quite confidently put one down where you.

You will be interviewed. That isn't why I chose it, but like, that's definitely something to think about. But again, the actual format of the interviews are quite different. Middle, there wasn't much on the interviews. Like there wasn't much on the website to say what happened on the interview. Um, it was clear that they were going to refer to the application form, that you had the chance to like suggest a question that, um, you would.

Be able or be interested in answering. But other than that, there wasn't much information. I know that the other ends of court not all of them, but they, some of them have sort of more structured interviews. Some of them you have to prepare, like a topic presentation, that sort of thing. So [00:18:00] again, I think personality really comes into it.

Look at that. Um, chamber student website. Look at the difference in the interviews. Look at the actual ends of court websites, and have a think about what suits you best for some reason. Like, I actually, I do see the appeal, but I just felt like the idea of a pre-prepared presentation which I then had like.

Went into present, which in some way kind of give me more stress, which is strange. 'cause as a law student you do that quite a lot with mooting and, um, I actually had to do it for my bar course application, but I just kind of preferred the idea of just a am. Interview where was kind of relatively spontaneous questions that I, I didn't predict or I, I did try to predict them, but yeah, so it definitely, the interview process is different between the different ends.

And talking about my interview, uh, at middle. Again, as I said, it was really, it was really short. You go down to, I think now they do have the option of you can do it online if you don't have to. I always, I think most people say this like, do it in [00:19:00] person. It can be easier, I think, to really get into the mindset of like, oh, I'm in a formal interview, but I, yeah, I traveled down to London and.

It was like a really interesting 'cause it was so quick. They basically had loads of us all outside in, um, this like waiting room, which you think would sound. Kind of horrible, everyone waiting. But funnily enough I was, and I think most people would be, I was really nervous as I was, um, heading down. Uh, it had felt like so long since I'd submitted my application that you know, I'd had to really almost revise it and, and remind myself of all the things that I was talking about.

And yeah, I definitely had quite a lot of nerves. I actually stayed the night before in London and then something about like sitting in the room and we all, like the different applicants actually ended up talking and just like asking each other about. Our, like, where we were at with our kind of aspirations of being a barrister, you know, what people, uh, were doing, some people were doing the GDL.

Some people were in final year law. Some people had like graduated, but were on a gap year. So I mean, I guess again, [00:20:00] that's like more of a personal. Experience, but it was really lovely and I think in some ways massively helped to calm me down before the interview. So I think, um, if you can go in person and actually see the other applicants, and I guess like you get a sense of like, we're all in this together.

And. You can kind of talk before you walk into the room. I think sometimes when you haven't, you've like sat in silence for 30 minutes and then suddenly you're being asked questions. It can be quite an intense change. Whereas it was nice that we'd sort of spoken. But yeah, I think usually all of the ends have that sort of panel style interview.

So there's more than one person interviewing you and it was, I mean, probably the most, which makes sense kind of, third year of an undergrad. It was definitely the most formal style interview I'd ever had. Um, very different from like an undergrad trying to get into university interview because you are also, you are not just showing that your interest in the law, you're also trying to show that you have the attributes of a potential barrister.

[00:21:00] So yeah, I'm trying to kind of talk about that without going into like too many, too many really detailed specifics. 'cause it'll change year on year and it was, um. It went really fast, which I think is obviously going to happen. A 15 minute interview. And honestly, I think it's really hard to know how you've done in that kind of speed start interview.

I definitely didn't come out, you know, skipping and being like, wow, I absolutely smashed that, but I was like, satisfied with my performance, if that makes sense. As is always the way I knew that I had like answered some questions better than others, but I don't wanna start sounding like a, you know, admissions tutor here, but that were definitely some things that had to really drill into me.

Like, um, just kind of take like slowing down a bit, which I'm trying to tell myself right now and thinking it through a little bit because they are supposed to be slightly thought provoking questions. I think. Um, and not blurting out the first thing on my mind because I was obviously nervous, but, um. I think what I also wanted to say about the interview is [00:22:00] I practiced I actually had a first initial, I mean, I had a, I was talking about having someone, people at my, I.

University who applied the year before me, and I can't even stress how much of a support they were. Um, you know, reach out to people if you know that they've applied for a bar scholarship before. Some, like having gone through my, the process myself, I like to think that I would support anyone who wanted to do it.

And I had one in particular, one brand in particular who was just like, so, um. So supportive and I actually had a pretty disastrous first mock interview with him. I, it was so strange, but it really helped because obviously we were friends, I was really relaxed around him. But something about as soon as he started trying to interview me, I was just like, just calmed off and was super kind of awkward and nervous.

And then we did, um, did a few, like a few more, and it was just really helpful to kind of get back into the swing of interviews, which I hadn't done for a while. And I also just did like I did. Some casual ones to my parents. I, [00:23:00] yeah, I guess what I'm saying here is I did interview prep and I think, um, I think everyone would, and I think it can really, even in quite a short amount of time, I think it can really improve improve your kind of just how you present yourself, how you're feeling about, um, the interview in general and, and help you to control nerves.

And I also watched all of the ends of court, you know, they really do try and provide. Uh, a lot of resources. There was like, um, on YouTube there was, it was from a few years ago, but like a middle temple seminar where they talked about the interviews and they actually gave examples of different questions.

And I basically made myself like a potential question bank. Um, just from, you know, there's loads of different blogs and things like that about, uh, that talk about. Different questions they might ask or they have asked in the past. And then, yeah, just sort of whiz through them. It was really helpful actually.

Apologies, this is quite a long answer, but I also had my bar course interview coming up and there was crossover there. So it was, I found [00:24:00] just the whole, that whole process really, really helpful to actually, it. All the applications I was making that year, and while I didn't, I'm sure anyone that was also like, was also applying for Pupilage just that amount of interview, prep and practice would be, um, really good.

But I think that one of the other things that I would say is don't neglect any of the emails or anything like that. They, they. Didn't like. Oh. Like they actually don't send, you know, you don't get bombarded by emails. It's, it's a like every time I got an email from your temple, I was like, oh my, oh my.

Like I've got one. It wasn't that much. And I'd be reading all the details, but read them really carefully. 'cause there can be some really helpful snippets of information that I think you could read quite quickly. Like I knew that when I walked in, I would be asked about like. Any other developments that had happened since I'd submitted the application form because it had been you know, months since, like in November and the interviews were more April time.

And they tell you that they like very openly say, you know, they'll probably ask you [00:25:00] any, um, kind of additional developments. And it meant that I, 'cause it can be really hard to keep track of what you've done in a year. It meant that I knew, um. To just have in my mind anything that I, um, had done and they told you that you could, you know, bring in notes and stuff.

I don't think I, I think I had just a copy of my application form just in case they asked me anything and I also just had like the question that I'd said that I would be happy to answer. Happy. To be happy isn't the right frame. It's like a question I'd want to be asked, I think is, uh, how it's phrased.

But I don't think relying on notes in such a short amount of time would be that helpful. And they also, I think all of the Inns of Court tell you that like they might discuss finance. 'cause obviously it's scholarship finance comes into it. And that was helpful. Not that you need to prep that, but just because you know, you fill out a financial form and you do need to, then again, it was like at least a month or so ago, you do need to have an awareness on it 'cause it, so it can just be helpful to be aware of that so you're not just really confused why you've even asked a question about finance when all in your head was all about [00:26:00] law.

So that was a really long response. As you can tell, I had a lot of thoughts about the, the interview and I think if I said anything, I probably, I. Which I think anything you can say in reflection will be like this. But I was really nervous, like the week leading up to my interview, I was so, so nervous and the timing wasn't great.

I was also like sitting one of my final exams and I was like, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. And I think it is helpful to just remember like. Like most things to do with bor, like put the preparation in it's 15 minutes and obviously hindsight's everything, but it's really not gonna be like a be and end all of of your future as, as a lawyer.

So, um, yeah, I think that would be quite grand for, would be my advice about the interview.

Katie: No, that was incredibly helpful and incredibly thorough and I think the one thing that stood out to me is. I know you were saying, obviously [00:27:00] everyone will be doing interview prep point about just doing the practice of speaking out loud, whether that's with, you know, a friend who's familiar with the process or parents who aren't, or even just with yourself.

I think like I'm definitely the type of person that, um, don't really enjoy.

Mm-hmm.

Katie: Speaking out loud, and particularly with people I know, sometimes I can find it hard. 'Cause it's almost like I almost get embarrassed even though Yeah, yeah. Obviously there's no reason to be embarrassed with friends or family.

So this was something I had to do an interview exam in my SQE two exam, so I, I had to do, I had to push myself to do those bits of practice with people. And I would agree that that was something that helped me the most. For the actual day when I had to do my exam. So I think that's a really good piece of advice, and I approve lots of top tips across this episode, [00:28:00] and particularly in terms of the interview, but just to, finish off the episode, what would your advice be to anyone who's considering applying for a bar scholarship?

Ellie: My main advice would firstly be just to go for it. I first heard about the bar course scholarships, when I wanna say on my, like first or second mini when, like, it was quite a while ago.

Bearing in mind, I've, I've been at university for quite a long time, um, and I think the barrer that mentioned it to me was like, oh, they, we don't get that many app. Like, there's not that many applications. I think now. They're becoming more and more well known. And it seems like looking at statistics, more people are applying.

But I just think like it's, it's such a fantastic thing. Um, you know, that the ends of court offer. So I would say it's like a hundred percent worth I've just talked about per the kind of effort that I put in. It's really, really, um, a great thing to apply for. [00:29:00] But, um, on a more practical note and hopefully more kind of applicable advice.

Would be the ends of court publish that that I guess their marking criteria. That might not be quite the, the right phrase, but definitely look at that. I've noticed I was actually just re-looking, uh, today while kind of prepping. And they're not the same between the different ends of court that, I mean, there's some like really clear themes, but the way they write them are d uh, definitely a bit different.

And some of them have more, some of them have left. Uh, Middletown boy has four and um. I definitely used them for just the whole part, like all of the application process for my actual, um, for my actual written application. I like made sure that, I think I had like an equal and like easily identifiable, um, point for, for like all of them.

'cause I think it would just be the most obvious thing, like if that's. It sounds like the most obvious thing, but I think it's easy to write your answers and maybe [00:30:00] not look at the um, criteria. And I think it would maybe be, I don't know, but you wanna make sure that you've really got that in there. And it helped me actually massively with prep because when you start thinking, oh, what could they ask me?

There's such a wide range, and I actually just used, obviously they, they probably wouldn't ask me quite so, obvious, but I, I literally made questions out of the criteria just to check that I had an answer for anything that was, um, what they said they were directly looking for. And, um, yeah, I just, I thought that was like such, I, I mean, I got this advice when I was prepping and I thought it was so helpful.

And yeah, again, I've already said this, but. Definitely just like interview process. Practice and yes, practice the speaking, which you've literally just said because as like a, just a second point I'm assuming a lot of people who have applied maybe have done a lot of mooting and maybe debating and things like that.

But I, um. Re like remembered again when I was prepping for the [00:31:00] interview. I really like meeting. There's something, I mean, I do get nervous, but there's something about the style of speaking that I feel like I can almost just like. Kind of fall into this like person who's speaking really formally, and I'm going through my submissions and, um, I have this kind of confidence when I'm doing it.

But in the interview, you are really, uh, you, you're speaking like yourself. You've not got that almost structure. You've not thought of every variable because unlike, um. Moot competition. You don't get, you know, the whole problem that you are dealing with, uh, in the sort of fake trial. So just because you are maybe really skilled at public speaking and mooting, I would say don't then neglect the actual interview style process because, um, I was almost shocked at myself, uh, during my first practice interview that I was like, oh where are my kind of public speaking skills?

Where have they gone? And yeah, I think it just, it was really, really different. Skillset and yeah, I would just wanna highlight to that, particularly as you know, people who apply aspiring barristers.

Katie: Alright, well you so [00:32:00] much for explaining the whole process and giving all of those top tips and advice.

Hopefully this will encourage some people to go for it and make the application and maybe make the process a little daunting. So thank you very much.

Ellie: Yeah. And thank you so much for, for coming back for an episode. It's been so nice recording with you.

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