Season 5, Episode 10: Daria Levina

Our Episode Transcripts are produced by Descript. Some words/dialogue may not be transcribed with 100% accuracy.

Ellie: [00:00:00] Thank you for joining me on Law Talks today, and to start off the episode, please, could you describe your career to date?

Daria Levina: Sure. Uh, I mean, first of all, thank you so much for having me. Very, very happy to be here. So I, uh, started as a, because a law firm lawyer, when I graduated from university, I joined a German law firm, uh, one of their offices in Moscow, and I did for a few, um, I did work for them for a few years.

And I really liked that. It was like a medium sized firm, a lot of interesting projects. And in parallel I also started a PhD, like my first PhD. And uh, and that was a lot. And so after a few years of doing that, I thought that, well, I needed to redirect.

And I applied for an LLM. I, um, I was accepted to several schools and I ended up going to Harvard and, and after that I, uh, got, um, fellowship offer for [00:01:00] the prominent court of arbitration in the Hague, and then I spent some time there.

And so like, I tried those different part, um, different flavors of law practice, uh, for international arbitration institution for a law firm. And I thought, well, that's really nice, but, uh, but I really feel like I am more of an academic type of person.

And while I was working in The Hague, I applied for.

Another PhD in Italy, uh, at the European University Institute in Florence. And, um, and I've been academic since that. That's in a nutshell my career path.

Ellie: Thank you. I mean, that's a hugely diverse career, and so can I check how many, how many PhDs have you completed now?

Daria Levina: Well at the moment two. Wow. Um, I have the urge to apply for a third one, but, um, at the moment it's still two.

Ellie: Very, very impressive.

Um, and sort of focusing in on one [00:02:00] part that you talked about, could you sort of explain a little bit more about your work as an international arbitration lawyer, particularly when you, uh, worked in the Hague?

Daria Levina: Yeah, sure. So it started, uh, when I was, um, um, on my first job as a law firm lawyer. And initially I worked with, um, with, with, um, lawyers from different domains.

Like I did regulatory, I did competition, I did real estate. Um, but the partner with whom I worked the most was, um, a dis dispute resolution lawyer. And he did both litigation and arbitration. And that's sort of, um, something that drew me. And I really liked that. I attended a few summer schools in arbitration such as Paris Arbitration Academy and the Hague Academy of International Law.

And I really liked that. And so, um, while I was, uh, doing my LLM in, uh, in the US I, I explored that path more. And, uh, yes, and I was, I was [00:03:00] fortunate enough to, to get that fellowship offering a Hague, which was really, really interesting because, uh, you look at the arbitration world from like the neutral perspective of someone who administers and manages the dispute, and it's a very different set of priorities here, a different set of tasks.

He usually oversee the proceedings. He would draft, uh, procedural documents, communicate with parties, um, make sure that the arbitrator appointment is neutral and complies to all the guidelines. So that was definitely very interesting. Um, I, I also participated in, uh, looking at a number of arbitration proceedings as an expert.

Because usually what you have is that like it's a cross board dispute and parties are from different parts of the world and they negotiate the applicable law, which is usually not the law that arbitrators are familiar with. Mm-hmm. And so I was involved in several arbitrations [00:04:00] as, as an expert in Russian law.

Yes. And then, um, that, that's, that's strictly the, the practice part of my arbitration experience. My writing, specifically the doctoral research, also concerned arbitration, but I think that that's a whole different matter.

Ellie: So, so it sounds really interesting, but I guess one thing that you mentioned there.

To be kind of an expert. Was that something that you, it takes sort of a certain amount of years before you can act in that way? Or is it just that you've maybe like, studied that area of law force? You can give that insight. When, like, when you were taking that role in the, in the courts.

Daria Levina: So I'd say, um, formally mm-hmm.

You are qualified to be an expert once you get the, the relevant qualification and law when you are admitted to practice in, in a particular jurisdiction.

Ellie: Yeah.

Daria Levina: But in my observation to, to actually act as an expert, you also need a reputation and you need people to, in the industry to know you and to [00:05:00] approach you.

With requests. I was very lucky that I worked with other arbitration lawyers before who involved me in their projects.

I would say that there, there have to be two components, formal qualifications and the relationships and the network you've built.

Ellie: Yeah, that's interesting seeing sort of both sides that are required 'cause um, yeah, I guess like the wording of expert sounds like you maybe need, um, some sort of specific qualification.

So yeah, really interesting. Um, and actually, yeah, I would be really interested to hear about your, the academic side of, of arbitration and I guess sort of what drew you to that originally because if I'm understanding your, you are doing, you were studying while also acting as a. The arbitration lawyer and kind of, yeah.

When did you know that you wanted to focus a PhD on, on arbitration?

Daria Levina: So, uh, when I started my first PhD, it was right after law school. And, um, partly it was just because I, like, I am very enthusiastic about law.. And, uh, I, I tend. [00:06:00] To start and be involved in many projects um, that are interesting to me.

That there are intellectual stimulating and also, uh, when you are like a straight A student, it's sort of, um, it was sort of expected that you would go on and make a, a contribution Yeah. To the field. Uh, academically. A lot of people I knew did that.

And, even though I, I, I had a full tuition scholarship. I still had to to make a living.

So like, whenever you do a PhD, um, unfortunately there is a very big financial constraint that comes with it.

Because you still need to fund your life. Uh, and so that's why I, I worked in parallel to doing, uh, my academic work. And the first PhD, I really wanted to do it on a private international law.

Um, private international law is part of arbitration, but. There is sort of like, there's a lot of overlap and there there's [00:07:00] a lot of also difference.

And what I was particularly interested in was was this, um, rule in the eu law on, um, on the jurisdiction at the place of performance, of contractual performance because that rule, like it, it was initially a part of the Brassel convention and, and now brassel one regulation and it's just.

It is been, um, a source of an insane number of disputes and, um, cases submitted to, um, the Court of Justice of the European Union. For clarification, it was a very short provision, but nobody understood what it meant. Mm-hmm. And I was really interested in just looking into it and providing a solution.

So it was actually more on the procedural side. And then when I did my second PhD, that was more that was closer to arbitration because I studied a type of dispute resolution mechanisms called international commercial courts. And they are sort of the [00:08:00] hybrid mechanism They are. They're based on, um, on the state court system of, of district resolution.

They are like, there, there are state courts, they integrated into the, like the municipal court system, but they tend to incorporate arbitration like features. Okay. And so that research involves significantly more like, like what is considered conventional arbitration because I looked into like the procedure of arbitration, how much it can work.

For a court, like for a state court, what constraints need to be in place for, like, for so that the, the, the neutrality is insured and, and no party is prioritized and, and the party autonomy is respected. All of that, all of that does.

Ellie: Really interesting. Yeah. Again, super, um, kinda a range of things that you're looking at, and I imagine it was hugely kind of beneficial also to be doing it while working.

[00:09:00] Being able to kind of put some of this, uh, academic knowledge into, into practice as well.

Daria Levina: Yes. And actually I'm really happy that I I have that combination. Mm-hmm. So I have in total four years of work experience and, um, it was just so helpful.

Because, um, it, it crystallized a lot of the concepts for me because I knew what it actually looks like. In, in real world.

Ellie: Yeah. Which I think, It does definitely bring in a different perspective. I've sort of just studied law at the moment, but doing work experience, a certain area of law feels really different when you're actually looking at real life cases as opposed to kind of textbook or case law in while studying.

So yeah, really interesting perspective. And again, sort of focusing on another aspect of your. Academic career focusing on, on your LLM. So I guess kind of at the, at the time, sort of what how and why did you decide to then pursue an LLM and yeah. What was your experience of, of studying at Harvard?

Daria Levina: [00:10:00] Yeah, of course. Um, so I'd say like since the first year of university I was really drawn to international opportunities. My university advertised them from time to time. Like they had cooperation agreements, uh, with various universities and, uh, some some programs were funded, some, some programs were not.

And I always applied if there was a funded program, like something just, uh, in my brain said like, I, I cannot live with myself if I don't apply. Yeah. And that way I am. Mm. I did a lot of study abroad. I, I did a semester, uh, at the University of Humboldt in Berlin. I did the academies that I mentioned in Paris and the Hague because they also had scholar like you could apply for a scholarship.

Uh, which was very handy. And, um, and at some point I just realized that I really want to, to study long term [00:11:00] in a different country. Like I want to do a full degree because, um, this, um, experience has been so eye-opening. And I mean, like it's a cliche that, that you are meeting new people from all parts of the world.

But it's a cliche because it's true. And I also do comparative law, comparative and international law, and, and doing all those study abroad programs. It was just really, really helpful for my work as a lawyer because I got exposed to to the legal traditions that I was actually studying and that I was interested in, um, in writing about.

And, and so I decided to apply. And the first so I applied for two years, and the first year I wanted to apply to Europe and I applied to three programs Oxford, Cambridge, and the Master's of International Dispute Settlement in Geneva. And I got admission and full scholarship from, from [00:12:00] mid, like mid Geneva.

And then I, I had admission from Cambridge. But I didn't have any scholarship.

Um, and I didn't know how to fund it at all because, uh, there were, there were no scholarships, no loans. Mm-hmm. So it was just like very hard because especially when you are navigating this as a foreign student, like there are so many constraints that applied to, um, to what's available. So, and I thought really hard, uh, whether to accept the meds Geneva because it was fully funded and I realized that I actually like I didn't want to limit myself to just career in arbitration.

Uh, it can be a fantastic career. But what I was looking for was just, just getting inputs.

Like, like, um, inputs for, for what to do next with my life, that it would be so different from anything that I've had before. And I thought, well, like the US seems like a [00:13:00] place that, that would give me those inputs. Because, um, it's just so different from anything that I've seen before. And, and I decided to reapply.

Like I, I declined those offers and I decided to reapply. And I reapplied to the us like I also wanted to reapply to, to the uk, but just, more strategically approach these, the scholarships. But, but the applications were so time and effort consuming. That I just, I just didn't have enough energy left for that.

The US took everything I had and so, and so I got into NYU and, and Harvard and, and after just notoriously hard. A few months looking for funding. I managed to secure the money that I needed to attend Harvard. Wow. And that's, uh, that's, uh, how I, the, the decision making process behind it.

Ellie: Thank you.

Yeah, that's, I mean, it shows the, the difficulties. [00:14:00] I, again, I'm not an expert in this, but. My understanding, I think UKU needs, um, funding can be quite, quite difficult and they don't tend to be like, attached to courses necessarily that some of my friends who have done later study it can be really hard.

But yeah, I guess it kind of makes it more complicated that you have to focus on both sides. You're not just trying to get admission to the course, you also have to secure funding and it can be like whole separate applications. And yeah, I can see that you, you really sort of. Considered your decisions for congratulations on all your offers.

That's really fantastic. And yeah, so what kind of was your experience of, of studying at Harvard? As you said, you really get to meet new people and, and like the sort of stereotype of of that is true. Did you, like, did you find the kind of teaching style really different?

Daria Levina: I mean, like there's this, uh, Socratic method that the us, um, practices like, or that is practiced in, in law schools in the US where, um, especially for the first year students professors sort of called, called calls them.

And there [00:15:00] is a lot of, um, uh, learning that that is, uh. That is part of the dialogue between the professors and, and the students. That was really interesting. I did, um, a course on trial advocacy, and I would say that's, uh, that's the most interesting because, uh, I mean the, the legal traditions that I've been most exposed to, um, aggression or German they are very like written traditions of law.

Like you, you write as a lawyer a lot. And I would say, um, based on what I've seen in common law as well. But, but part of common law is also the oral advocacy that happens, especially in the us because it's, uh, genuine. It's a very litigious culture. People like to litigate and, um, but the course was fascinating.

Like I, I really liked practicing the, the different styles of argumentation, like the, the. Opening statements, the cross examination [00:16:00] that was in a classroom that was amazing. It taught me a lot.

Um, I also took a lot of classes outside of law school because, uh, I was just really interested in exploring a lot of different things and I, I took a few business classes at MIT.

Because I was already thinking about open, like starting my own LLM consultancy and I thought, well, business knowledge would be really great. I participated in a musical, uh, law school has an original musical. They produce, like, it's a huge production. I, I think when I did it, it was like a $40,000 production Wow.

With a lot of students involved. Like, there would be writers who would write a script and a script would have a, a theme, like a very recognizable pop theme.

For instance, in our year it was Lord of the Rings, uh, but then the musical would be about law school and professors and students. I was assistant [00:17:00] director at the time wow.

That was, uh, that was amazing. And like the, the time that I participated, it was almost exclusively like GD Club. They only had a couple of other L students, but, uh, from what I've heard, the access has been democratized, democratized since then. Yes, and I, like, I, I really focused on my thesis.

Uh, I wrote a thesis on conflict of laws, uh, and like on, again, a very theoretical, uh, subject of law applicable to, um, choice of court agreements in, in the US and, and the eu. And I really liked that, that as well, like I got a price for it. Like I feel like I've done so much in that, in that year.

And I really try to just, uh, just expose myself to very different activities. Yeah.

Ellie: Yeah. No, I think that really, that it really shows how much you, you did in, in that year. And I think, um, that's like the, the really enjoyable thing about like [00:18:00] studying and, and doing something like a masters. All the different opportunities that also come alongside the academics.

And I, I guess like Harvard is very famous for that, like wide breadth of, um, activities and doing things like. The, the kind of theater production just sounds, uh, I feel like it'll be such a memorable thing throughout your career. So yeah. Thank you. I think it really shows, um. It really showed your kind of whole experience of the year and, and how busy it was.

Um, and I guess, yeah, really linked to that, you've talked about kind of the, the difficulties of applying for like the applications and how much that takes with also funding. But I, yeah, I wondered if you wanted to give advice to people who are aspiring for like LLM applications, I guess particularly international ones what you felt like the particular challenges were, um, and yeah, what your, your kind of main advice was from, from your experience.

Daria Levina: Oh, yes. I feel like talking about this because I think, um, there is, uh, a huge, um, asymmetry, information asymmetry [00:19:00] in just, um, like when, when it comes to what you need to know when you apply to LLM, especially a top ranked LLM.

And, uh, I, I think, uh. Like, that's part of the reason it took me two years just to navigate this process because it's just so difficult.

Um, and part of the reason, like I created my consultancy and they call the materials that I have on my website, like including book articles and, and courses. And if I have, if I had to distill like the most important ad advice, I would say that, well, first of all, it's important to start early.

It's a trivial advice, but, um, so many people come to me like a couple of weeks before the deadline that I think it's worth reiterating.

Because there's also this, um, phenomenon where when, when you see accounts of people who. Have been admitted to prestigious programs. There, there will always be people [00:20:00] who will say that, well, I've just spent, uh, a week on my application materials and I got in.

Wow. And, and there is like this selection bias because people, the majority of people will spend a lot of time, but they will see those accounts. And they will be afraid to, to share their experience because they will think that they will, it may, it will make them look like losers. Like there is someone who spend a week, I'm probably immediate to spend in month for spending months.

And so I would like to say on the record that you do need to spend a lot of time. Because, um. It like you, you'll need to write a lot of essays, like motivation letters, personal statements, statements of purpose, whatever they're called. You will need to write a lot. And even if you engage ai you still need to let ideas develop.

And, and ideas take time. And, uh, it is just, uh, it's just very important, [00:21:00] especially because everyone has lives in addition to applications. Um, you may have a job or studies, uh, you may have like a, a personal circumstance that will influence how much and how much time you can spend. So it's important to plan in advance.

Another important idea that I would like to highlight is that if you didn't get in on the first try. It is perfectly acceptable to reapply.

Because I mean, sometimes a failure is part of the weakness though of the profile. Maybe it, like it does happen, but very often what I see is that there was just a combination of circumstances and part of it is that there is a particular style to applications that you need to master and, uh.

Your application will probably be better on a second try. And [00:22:00] I know a lot of people who were more successful on their, on their second try, or people for instance, who applied the first time and only got admission, but the next time got full scholarship. And, uh, so there is absolutely no like no, um, reason to be deterministic.

About failing the first time. And, and I say like number three is to spend a lot of time thinking about why you, why you wanna do this. And, um, and developing like a very strong personal statement because, uh, what I've seen especially. Like, not just as a as a, an alumni admissions consultant, but also when I was on the admissions committee myself during my PhD, I, I was, um, I was evaluating applications because, uh, my university need leave.

They always involved students in the selection [00:23:00] process, and what I've seen is that because applications are so competitive. What happens very often is that, for instance, if like, let's say you, like there are 10 places to distribute, but there are 20 applications that are very qualified and a lot of them have very strong cvs.

And there is no chance I will be able to differentiate those applications based on the cvs. I will be able to differentiate them based on their writing. And for an alignment will be personal statements. Like for a PhD it'll be research proposal, whatever it is. Writing really matters. Because there's just a point when, um, CVS is not gonna add up.

So if you are thinking about whether to add an additional line on your CV or to spend time preparing your assays, I would say assays are really, really important.

Ellie: Yeah. Thank you. That's [00:24:00] some really helpful, helpful advice. I think I've definitely, not for an alum, but I've definitely been guilty before sort of slightly rushing an application and then compared to ones where I took, you know, a good amount of time to, to do, you can really tell the, the quality difference.

And just, I've never, um, really looked at the sort of US applications for the uk. Again, I really only have experience with undergrad. Sort of how many essays, for example, for applying for an LLM at Harvard were that, were you required to do like multiple different essays or is it that each application to a different university has sort of one essay?

Daria Levina: I mean, they usually at least one essay.. Uh, some, a university such as Harvard or NYU. They will either require you or invite you to, um, write an essay on a legal topic or a legal issue. For Harvard is, uh, it's a requirement. Yeah. And, uh, for some reason they call it part of a personal statement.

Okay. I don't know why they do this, because, um, I get a lot of [00:25:00] questions about like, what, how, like, how my personal. How, how the essay on a legal topic is supposed to be part of my personal statement, like does it have to be linked to my personal statement? Like, whatever.

There is a bunch of unnecessary questions they created, I calling it this way.

But there are two mandatory assays. For, for Yale. When I applied, there were two essays. One had to be a research agenda and another reasons for applying.

Um, my understanding is that now they changed it for NYU, like if you, if you would like to apply for a scholarship, specifically Houser scholarship, um, there is also an essay and a legal issue involved.

Usually, usually there is, there is one essay. It's, it's typical to ask for two. Help universities.

Ellie: Yeah, thank you. That, that, um, that makes it clear 'cause yeah. So undergrad in the UK has personal statement, which now is like broken into I think sort of three short questions. [00:26:00] So it's quite different talking actually about a legal issue.

But I guess also really hope like helps to kind of show your apt student ability in, in the application. But yeah, thank you so much. This is slightly kind of well, a slightly sort of changed focus now this question focusing more on um, I guess almost previously having sort of academics alongside your career.

I guess 'cause it's a relatively unique, um, a lot of the time we. Ask guests on the podcast to describe their kind of like average week working as a lawyer. So when you were sort of doing a PhD while also working, how did that sort of split work? What was your average week? What did it look like and Yeah.

How, how did they sort of compliment each other?

Daria Levina: Yeah. I think, look, when I was, um, combining law practice and academia, I was mostly working. . Um, because that, that just had to be prioritized. Uh, what I did though to finish my PhD was that I, I mean, first of all, I had an agreement with, uh, with my law [00:27:00] firm that there, there would be certain days when I, I, like, I would be coming late to work or like they had they, they provided for flexibility in that regard.

And I didn't work part-time. I worked full-time. And uh, what I did was I would I would work on my PhD whenever I, I took, uh, I took sort of a break for for attending the Paris Academy or the Hay Academy. That was also like part of my agreement that I, I could just, I could take a very long, like vacation, like, or three weeks, or four weeks.

And, um. And I sort of, um, grouped my work on, on the PhD there. And I also did a research stay again, with the home at university. And I, like, I intentionally just, I was on leave from my firm. To do that because I, I really wanted to [00:28:00] create a space for the PhD because just like with, just like with applications, like ideas need time to develop.

Especially when you are working on a big project and like, you need to develop like a solution to a problem, like a large problem you identified and write 200 pages about it. So you just need space. So I, like, I designed my work. In a way that like, I would mostly prioritize work, but then I would create those containers specifically to work on my PhD.

And many times I, I try to work on it like on the weekends and during vacations and that's like a lot of people I know did that as well. Um, but. But this, um, like short term condensed, uh, work on the PhD like over the weekend. Just did, it just didn't work for me. And also, I'm not a machin, so just that was another problem.

[00:29:00] So I would say just mostly, I strategically just planned to work on a PhD, like in those like, I dunno, I call them pockets of time.

Like containers or whatever it is. Um, but just to really prioritize PhD during a bulk of time and, and then shift the focus on, on my low practice.

Ellie: Yeah, I can tell it takes a, a huge amount of discipline to be able to sort of have this switch throughout.

But as we said, also super, very rewarding and, and can really help with the practical side of the work. But no thanks. That's really, I think that's really interesting 'cause I, I. Could definitely see how it'd be really difficult to have that mental switch as sort of academic and practical work has, uses a lot of different skills and almost like focus of your time.

Thank you. So, and one thing that's really come through throughout this sort of interview, uh, conversation is that sort of throughout your, your career, you've, you've been. Manage like numerous different projects at the same time. Um, so during your LLM and also [00:30:00] at the, um, permanent, permanent court of arbitration in the Hague and things like that.

So again, kind of asking what your advice would be for, um, people who kind of are trying to manage and, and handle different projects. Yeah. What is your kind of main way of tackling this, and I guess how have you maintained it for, for such a long period of time?

Daria Levina: Of course, I think, well, part of it is that I I pursue projects that I like.

It is very important to stress that passion comes first and, and discipline is strictly subject to that. Because, uh, like I don't pursue, for instance, projects in math or physics. I do not. I, I never liked those disciplines and I would never be able to sustain. Like anything beyond like, um, like what I needed for high school.

Uh, grade. So that's very important because I, a lot of what I like when I tell parts of my story to different people, I [00:31:00] do get that a lot of like, oh, that is so disciplined. And I'm like, sure, but discipline is secondary here.

I think it's really important because I, I just, I think in this, um, this sort of, uh, there's this very masculine narrative that you have to push through things and power up and like, and no pain, no gain.

I do not subscribe to this narrative. Like I, I mean, I do believe that sustained effort is what brings results, but I think it should be combine combined with your natural inclinations. And, and my na natural inclination is that I like doing research.

Uh, and I like working on large projects that allow for a lot of autonomy. And for instance, like now that I have, like, I have several academic projects, for instance, like I'm working on a book, uh, on the basis of my PhD thesis thesis, but I also have my own consultancy and I create, [00:32:00] uh, materials for this. And I also work with clients. But there is a lot of sub direction in it because I, I essentially define what is my work.

And I define when to do it. And that works for me. I know that doesn't work for many other people, and it's also important to recognize what, what is it that, that you are naturally suited for doing?

Um, so I would say that's really important to pay attention to it. Like in terms of, uh, specific technique techniques.

Like I actually have, um, a very, like a long form. Article that I wrote on the it is about productivity in regard of applications, but a lot of the tactic tactics I developed while combining multiple projects and for instance, something that I already mentioned. I prioritize different projects at different points of time.

I never prioritize multiple projects at the same time, like for instance. I don't think it's like for, for, [00:33:00] for me at least, it, it didn't work that I would be prioritizing both a PhD and work or both my business and academia. Like I, I have sprints and those sprints that are dedicated to focus on a particular project.

And, um, in doing my PhD, like I, I just, I really. I really wanted to figure out how to do this optimally. And I read a lot about the productivity and all that stuff. And, um, and the sprint methodology is something that is practiced in programming, like it's also called the agile method of, of planning. And what I also do is that.

If I need to switch gears, like if, if for instance, like I've been prioritizing one project, uh, up until now and then I need to switch gears and work on a different project, what I would do is I would, I say like I, I [00:34:00] front load the effort. On that next project, meaning that I would dedicate more time to it than I usually would like in the beginning.

Like I would, I would try to do as much as I can because like there is a lot of like inertia and pub dependency involved in, um, just in pursuing different things. And switching gears is very, very hard because, um, because our brains work in a way that. That makes you feel like you just wanna keep doing what you've been doing.

And, uh, and what helps me is just to, to really dedicate as much time as, as I can, for instance, to, like, let's say what recently I I wanted to submit, uh, a chapter of my PhD for like a, for a journal as an article. And I had to do a lot of reworking and, and that was like a priority for me for a week.

Like, until I. [00:35:00] I did like 90% of the work that I could, like I really gave it all. And then I still had to do a lot of work, but that was significantly more spaced out and I was working on, on other projects in a parallel. But I feel that psychologically it's very helpful. And I also like, I combine what is called like diffuse thinking and focused thinking because, uh, a lot of my work, it doesn't happen just when I sit in front of the laptop.

It happens like when I am standing in a queue. I'm just taking notes on something or I'm talking to a friend or my partner, or I'm, I'm, I'm taking a walk. And I think it's really important to recognize that you have, uh, not just the space, like when you literally sit in front of the laptop, but you have other spaces in your life and you can use them for creative work or for whatever you need to do.

Um, so I would say these are my most important points. [00:36:00] 

Ellie: Thank you. Um, I think of particularly the, the final thing you said there about. You do work like in a queue. Yeah, it's a really helpful perspective 'cause I, I think I've maybe not considered it like that even if I'm like thinking of something that I'm doing and like making plans.

Yeah, it's helpful to kind of bring that perspective in as you actually are working towards your goal and. Should kind of keep track of those things. Uh, and definitely that that article sounds really, um, like reading it in full. Sounds really helpful. And, uh, if you'd be happy to send it me, I'll make sure to include it in the show notes for, for this episode and I would really enjoy to read it myself.

So yeah, thank you so much and, and thank you for, for coming on Law Talks today.

Daria Levina: Yes, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. And I, well, there's just one thing I wanted to add. I feel like, uh. A lot of what we've been talking about is how to just optimize yourself as a perfect working machine, and I, I really would like to just to stress that it's not about that.. Like, um, it's just about, um, making [00:37:00] happen what you want in your life.

Ellie: Yeah.

Daria Levina: And it can be, it can be your work projects that there are very, they can be very fulfilling. It can be creative or it can be, it can be anything. And this is just the strategies that I use when I, when I need to get something done, something that's personally important for me.

So, um, that's what I wanted to highlight. Otherwise, I, I really hope this episode has been helpful for our listeners and thank you so much for having me.

Ellie: No, thank you. And I think throughout all your answers, your kind of passion for the different projects, your PhD or masters and the fact that you really love what you're researching or working on definitely really comes through.

So yeah, I think that that's a really important point to highlight. But no, thank you so much and I think this is really, really helpful.

Daria Levina: Thank you.