Season 5, Episode 8: Mental Health and Law: An Inside Look at Holly Miéville-Hawkins' Career in Law and Therapy

Our Episode Transcripts are produced by Descript. Some words/dialogue may not be transcribed with 100% accuracy.

Ellie: [00:00:00] Join me for this episode of Law Talks with Holly Merville Hawkins, a mental solicitor and partner, Anthony Gold Solicitors. Holly discusses her work in the court protection and her experience working as a therapist alongside her legal career.

Thank you so much for joining us on Law Talks today, and to start the interview. Please could you explain your pathway into a career in law.

Holly: Thank you. Thanks for having me, Ellie. It's just a real pleasure to be here today. So I've got a slightly, I guess, slightly unusual pathway into a career in law. I was one of those people that decided that I was not going to be a lawyer a very early age.

I didn't want to be a lawyer because my mother and my father and all of my family decided that [00:01:00] law was the inevitable outcome for me, and therefore I decided that I couldn't, they couldn't be right. So I wanted to be an actress and I wanted to work in public relations, and I wanted to change the world, and I wanted to do all of the things.

And I did quite well in my A Levels and decided that I. Wanted to be a philosopher, and so I did a philosophy degree, philosophy of mind, and so specializing in sort of how we interact with the world around us and. What the impact of dementia is on, on the brain and the sense of selfhood and personhood and what that means to be human and the impact of that on euthanasia and like, so I ended up sort of going down a slightly.

Biosocial route during my, my undergraduate degree. And so I came out with obviously like a first in, in philosophy, just not the most [00:02:00] applicable degree that you could possibly get in terms of like job options. And so I decided to go traveling in New Zealand for a little bit with my now husband and worked on organic farms and had an amazing time traveling.

It was wonderful, and then came back to England. He wanted, he trained to be a teacher, so we just settled in Exeter, not from there particularly, but just thought it would be nice place for him to do a teach training. And so I worked in public relations for a couple of years doing that, just supporting him basically.

And then just found myself just really not being happy in terms of the impact I was having on the world and not being able to, I didn't feel like I was living in line with my values. I felt like I really needed tea. Gives back to the world and use my skills for, for good and for for a further furtherance of, of, of people that were vulnerable in particular.

And it kept coming back to me, my dissertation that I did and the work that I'd been doing in terms of looking at what self had [00:03:00] meant and personhood meant, and mental illness and mental health. And so I sort of explored different routes. Finally realized that possibly my mother had been right all along, that actually really I should be solicitor or a barrister and I'm not from a wealthy background.

And so I needed to have that security of, of having like a, a training contract at the other end of doing my conversion and my LPC because I knew I'd be paying my way through, basically by doing, working in TGI Fridays. Doing summer of summer jobs and that sort of thing. And so I needed to have like that security at the other end.

And so it made me think that actually being a solicitor rather than being a barrister was probably the more secure option for me in terms of having that security of income at the other end of it. And also I could get a training contract sort of with that two years in mind, so I could do that training knowing that I would have a job at the other end of it basically.

And so [00:04:00] I. Like I hated the idea of being a lawyer. That didn't do good. I had to be a lawyer that helped people and supported vulnerable people. So I looked at criminal law and I looked at family law and I was sort of weighing up where to go with it all. And then I found out about the court of protection and it was just, it was just like everything fell into place for me.

It was just like a real light bulb moment. And I feel like, and I know I am so lucky to have had that, I know that I'm not under any illusion as to how lucky that is, just to, I found out about the course of protection, which is the, the court that makes decisions for people at that capacity to make those decisions for themselves.

And I thought, well, that's what I need to do, that, that's where I'm going. That that's me. And I therefore found firms that. That specialized in that and found a couple of lawyers that I, I followed their work and I felt like I really [00:05:00] respected them as lawyers in terms of what they'd achieved and particularly the policy work that they were doing and sort of at the work with the law society and step who sort of the, the, the professional body for trust and state practitioners and I made contact with them and I.

S mean potentially hounded them, um, before applying for a training contract. And I made it really clear in my training contract interviews what I wanted to do. And yeah. And so that's my route into law. So it's slight, it's it, it's slightly wishy washy at the beginning, but now what's weird is I use my philosophy degree every day, which is a really weird thing.

Like most people at do philosophy degree don't use it. And actually I do, which is really nice.

Ellie: It seemed to have really nicely sort of slotted into your career and I, I guess in some ways it's interesting to hear a lot of our guests say how they started out as a lawyer and they had no clue what that interests were and they kind of found it over time [00:06:00] where sort of being able to focus in and know that the court of protection was, was your interest and what you wanted to pursue probably seemed to be like greatly influenced by your prior philosophy degree.

Holly: Yeah, that's why I'm a lawyer. I didn't just think, oh, I'm gonna be a lawyer. And well, I'll, I'll do this area. It was like, I'm going to be a lawyer in order to do this. Then was slightly problematic on my training contract. 'cause I had, I mean, zero interest in anything else. And so it was riskless quite hard for my firm.

They made me do four, four months in commercial property. 'cause you have to get like a balance of commercial and private client. And I, at the end of my training seats, the, the, the, the partner that had been training me went, I think we both know this isn't for you. She's just like funny. They had stuff take me through my pace.

Do you know what I mean? Say and I, I was really selective about where I applied for. In my training contract, I only applied for three training contracts. I got two interviews, and then I got one training contract because [00:07:00] I only applied to places where I felt like their philosophy of how they approached their workforce and how they approached their clients tied with mine approaches.

I was. Samuel fems that like represented Coca-Cola or represented the MOD and I just was morally uncomfortable with that. I didn't want to contribute to the profitability of a, of a firm where I didn't believe in their ethical standpoint and say, whilst now I look back and I think, oh my God, Holly, that was such a risky strategy.

I didn't see it as a strategy. I just saw it as I will only apply to places where I feel our values are in line with each other. As a result, I had a really high success rate, I suppose, in those interviews and in in those applications.

Ellie: Yes. I feel also probably if you had applied wider, you, you wouldn't have wanted to see that work anyway, so it was a, it was a very much a smart strategy of what you want to do.

Holly: Not, not really a [00:08:00] strategy. More just I, I've, I've always been someone that's been led by my values and therefore I, I have to, I have to be with that. And so I guess, I guess the, the advice there is just, is to really do your research. Like I really did my research and I then powered everything into the ones where I felt like that would be.

A, an authenticity and a coherence between us where I could see a career building rather than it being like a tick box exercise. 'cause people see through you if you are not being honest to yourself, you know, particularly in something like the court of protection where it's so personal and you are dealing with people that are vulnerable and at the most awful times of their lives, particularly family members have been through, you know, the ringer and back again.

You can't put a mask on. You've got to truly be there with people and to hold them through that process. So, you know, it's, it's, yeah. So my advice should very much be just to be your authentic self in, in your applications and who you're applying to and why you're applying. [00:09:00] 

Ellie: Thank you. And I actually, you've slightly answered this, 'cause when you're describing your interest, I, I knew that in training contracts you do have to do kind of a range.

But after this, were you able to just kind of focus completely on court of protection once you'd finished your training contracts or did you, were, did you still need to do sort of a, a range after the first two years?

Holly: No, I, I, I, I think I'm quite a hard person to get to do what I don't want to do. And no, I, I did, so I did officially something like eight to 10 months in the court of protection during my training contract.

And then I did six months in family law doing, doing child abuse work and which is got a huge overlap with, with the court of protection and capacity issues. 'cause a lot of the parents who. Having their children taken away from them in, in that, in that sort of adoption system, have learning difficulties or diminished capacity for other reasons.

So I managed to keep that thread going through that era of work, I suppose. And I did quite a lot of private clients [00:10:00] work as well during my training contract. So will writing and trust drafting and that sort of thing. But I've taken that into my, my career as a court of protection lawyer. Like I would say that I'm.

Not a court of protection lawyer, I'd say as a mental capacity lawyer. So I do lots of work doing trust drafting, whether they're vulnerable beneficiaries. I act as litigation friends for people that lack capacity to litigate. I advise attorneys and deputies whether issues about abuse and, you know, trustee capacity issues to like, and, and family law, capacity issues, class to marry, capacity to engage in sexual relations.

So like I. To the wide range of capacity issues. So the, all of the work that I did in my training contract ended up being really helpful in my career after my training contract, even the commercial property. 'cause actually people have properties. Actually it was really helpful to know how to navigate the land registry and all those sorts of things.

So, and then I went straight into court of protection. I, I, I would, I've only taken an NQ seat [00:11:00] in Court of protection and I've done that throughout. It's like I've never done anything that's not court of protection. Never ask me an improvement law question, it would be awful for you.

Ellie: No, thank you. That's, that's really interesting.

'cause I think I've only experienced, I guess, capacity related issues in law to do with medical decisions. So yeah, hearing the wide range is really interesting. Um, I mean it seems self explanatory, obviously. It would stretch across all areas of law, but yeah, the different kind of issues and trust related issues.

And you mentioned in your first answer when you sort of decided to pursue a legal career. That you did come from a wealthy background and you wanted the kind of security of a training contract from the job after. So sort of focusing on that, I was wondering what would your advice be for someone listening to podcast who's interested in a career in law, who maybe starting out doesn't have clear industry connections and how that in your experience

Holly: like Honestly, when I look back at what I did, I think I was pretty ruthless.

So like I. [00:12:00] It's a funny thing, isn't it? I, I am not from a family of like, I'm the first lawyer in my family. My parents are teachers and my aunt is a teacher and my brother is to make, everyone's a teacher. My husband is a teacher. Like that's, that's the family business, you know? And so it is unusual for me to be a lawyer and we don't have friends are lawyers or anything like that.

Most of 'em are teachers. Um, and I. It's, I, I actually just look, I was thinking about this this morning when I was, I was in the shower and I was thinking about this, this interview, and I, I think about the audacity of what I did, and I was on an, I also an airplane coming back from a family holiday in Crete.

And I, overheard this guy talking to his family about his, his job, and he was a recorder, which is sort of like a, a part-time judge basically in a barrister. I just looked at him and I said. I would quite like to be a lawyer. I haven't quite decided where I'm gonna go. This is sort of like after university, not that gap basically between university and studying and pr.[00:13:00] 

Could I come and shadow you for a bit?

And he's like, yeah, why not? I went to shadow with him for a couple of days being your recorder, and I went to his chambers and said, but I could put something on my CV saying that I'd had a little bit of legal experience. Dunno the one side of a law firm to the other, like I had no idea.

Like I just knew that I philosophically wanted to do that job. I dunno how law firms worked, I had no idea. And that's one of the reasons I didn't get that. So I went for two interviews and one of 'em was a more of a slightly commercial firm, and they were just like, your commercial knowledge isn't very good in terms of how law firms work.

It's like, no, no, it's not like I have no experience in this. And so I've been quantified for 15 years now. So I'm 41, and so I was about 24, 25 when I was going through this process. It's like 15, 16 years ago. I think things have changed a lot. I think obviously you've got these different routes of entry now, so you can work and do the apprenticeship along, along the way, but my advice would be [00:14:00] just to get inside a law firm.

It doesn't matter how you are inside a law firm. It doesn't matter if you are the male person or you are on reception, or you are. Doing a formal vacation skiing or, and it doesn't matter in what way. You get in, just get in. And then by having that experience of being working inside a law firm, even if it means you have to take a year out, you will meet people, you will impress people, you will learn so much.

It's like osmosis, just picking up how law firms work, how people talk, what their objectives are, how people are treated, the sort of work it is like I've worked with. Some really, and I'm lucky I've got this paralegal at the moment. He's just amazing. Like, she's clearly a future lawyer. She's just fantastic.

She's fresh out of school. Like she just came in on like a, like a one week little back scheme thing and like, she's [00:15:00] just incredible. And so we get, we just immediately gave her a paralegal job. Like she'll automatically, like, she's gonna go through and be a lawyer. Like it's just how, she's just brilliant and like, I think.

If you just get in there and, and, and work with people and work hard and impress people, it will work for you. 'cause pardon is we want the good people, we want the good staff, we want the dedicated staff. And we do notice it. We do see, and so it's not like it's an invisible thing. I think tick in smaller firms that we see exactly what's happening.

And so actually just get in there and get, get talking to people. Don't, don't, don't be shy. So, yeah, be, be a bit audacious. Follow what you want.

Ellie: Thank you. That's, that's really helpful advice. 'cause there, there does seem to be such a range of different kind of, I guess, kind of entry level jobs with different law firms.

I just have, I was having a, like having a year out myself, different kind of, either just as a receptionist or I think. Helping in different filing areas, which would then like put you [00:16:00] inside the law firm or chambers. And yeah, it's really helpful to hear that's kind of a good route into just making those connections.

Holly: That would be what I would do if I, now that's what I would do, you know, at the time I didn't know that and I just hunted it. Um, but no, that would be my advice from having been inside a law firm.

Ellie: Thank you.

Holly: I think probably quite a little people through when I've seen their potential.

Ellie: Thank you. So to focus now on a slightly different topic, you described your work as a mentor, capacity solicitor, so you've just described how kind of broad it can be, but just for our listeners, what this to hear, what this specific role sort of involves and maybe what a typical case looks like.

Holly: Course. Yeah. So I'd say that my working life is separated into two different sides. Got. Like my litigious side, and then I've got my non litigious side. I'd say like, say I've probably 50 50 in terms of what I do, and I, I like that balance. I like that I get a variety of like really [00:17:00] stressful court experiences and deadlines and litigating and sort of strategy and that sort of side of things.

And then the, the, the non litigative side of things, which is much more about. I guess relationship building and support and sort of more complex, I suppose, side of things in terms of finances.

And on the non litigative side of things, I normally represent clients who have a significant award. As a result of an injury or a birth injury or a car crash or something like that, or elderly people who might have strokes or dementia. So if I act as their attorney or their deputy, so I'll be managing their finances, purchasing properties, adapting properties, investing their money, making sure that inheritance tax issues are dealt with, maybe applying for a statutory will for them if they'd like capacity to make a will.

Managing care teams, managing therapy teams, sort of like doing that, that [00:18:00] side of things. So it's really varied and I, and sometimes I can like rehome me a cat and sometimes I can be investing like 8 million pounds offshore. Like it, like maybe two days are the same. And like what I really like about it, it's really challenging and really varied.

I think that's a, it really shows when people describe that the law kind of impacts every part of everyday life when you mm-hmm. Have an individual who lacks capacity showing how much still needs to be dealt with in the kind of legal terms and, and what these lawsuit do. It's really, really interesting.

Ellie: And do you with, with the kind of split between litigious and non litigious, is it pretty sort of even split or Very Right.

Holly: I used to only do non litigious. Basically when I started it was just non, non litigative work. And then it's been, I think, a quite significant rise in elder abuse, say for the last sort of 10 years or so.

And say, I started having a couple of cases, but one actually ended up in the, in the, in the Crown court up in Liverpool where a [00:19:00] care homeowner had been abusing one of my clients before I got involved with them. And so defrauded him basically when he had that capacity. And so I ended up giving evidence in the Crown court and working with the police and then ended up sort of.

Helping build that prosecution case against him and retrieving, recovering the funds from my client. And so that's kind of how I started in the litigation side of things, I guess. And so it just ebbs and flow. Sometimes I have like 80% litigation and sometimes it'll be 80% non-litigation because like you just have to be flexible and adapt, you know, say, but I.

I prefer having a mix. I, I like to use both sides of my brain and also it makes me a better lawyer 'cause it means I can foresee issues as they're coming up for, for both sides of, of, of my, of my client base, I guess. And I, I, I know the law on both sides of it as well, so it makes me more rounded lawyer to be able to deliver both sides of it.

Yeah.

Ellie: Very interesting. Kind of variation in, in work and. I think people typically picture me the more a [00:20:00] like liturgist side of the law. But yeah, hearing the kind of different ranges and I guess how much for an individual, I don't if clients, the the correct term, the different aspects they would have in their life that needs to be resource.

Holly: Could be complicated, particularly if people got businesses and that sort of thing when they lose capacity. Of course. Of course, yes.

Ellie: Does, does your work ever kind of involve that initial stage of when it's determining whether the individual has capacity or.

Holly: Yeah. Um, literally yesterday was dealing with that exact issue.

And actually I do a lot of instructing, capacity experts. I work with the medical profession quite a lot in terms of getting reports. And there can be, there can be like whole cases that go on for like a week about whether someone could capacity to do a particular thing

And if you don't, then it's a best interest decision that's got to be made for you and you'll be able to taken into account. Obviously that's, it's a primary factor. There's, there's a dispute at the moment in terms of whether or not the Mental Capacity Act, section four, which is about best interest decision making, is compliant with the UN Convention on the rights of persons with disabilities.

[00:21:00] Because in that convention states that people shouldn't, that, that, that people who lack capacity should be absolutely front and center of all decisions that are made about them. Whereas actually we don't have. A system of substituted decision making. In England and Wales. A person's views are taken into account, but they're not the overriding factor, and we don't only act on those views, we could act against that person's views if we think it's not in their best interest.

So yes, so we, yeah, it's cut. Long story short, we, yes, whether someone's got capacity or not is an issue that comes up a lot and there could be whole, whole hearings about it. That's really interesting. That's not on and off as a switch. You can have capacity to. Decisions about whether to give 10 pounds to a charity, a cat charity like cats, but not have capacity to maybe invest 10,000 pounds on the stock market.

They're very different questions with different things you've got to take into account.

Ellie: Yeah, that's really interesting. I, I actually, my, one of my final exams that I. To finish was about whether the mental Quest Act, best interest assessment was like [00:22:00] sufficient of protecting the interest of.

Holly: oh, interesting.

I need these coming into law and, and, and legal, um, training now, because when I was training there was nothing on it. So that's really good to know.

Ellie: Yeah, no, it was, I mean, it was a optional I chose,. And as you, you previously mentioned your partner at Anthony Gods listers.

And you've talked about kind of the start of your legal career and finishing your training contract, and I'm curious kind of how and when in your career did you progress to becoming a partner and what did this entail?

Holly: Yeah, so I, uh, became partner three months ago. Anthony Gold and I, I feel immensely lucky to be there in terms of the quality of work and the complexity of cases that we're doing.

And so my journey into being a partner was not totally straightforward, I don't think, because I, I. I, I did what I, I think a lot of people end up doing, which is setting up your own team whilst you're a senior associate. And so I went to my last firm and set up their [00:23:00] mental capacity team, and then my stripes doing that.

So I sort of set up a and ran a successful team and you sort of always have to act as a partner before you're made a partner. Say sort of the business development side of things is really, really important. You need to be able to get the work in. And for me, how I do a lot of my business development is I do a lot of training.

I deliver a lot of training across the profession and I do a lot of policy work. I'm on the special interest mental custody group for to step, and I've worked with the Law Society for 10 years and doing sort of policy work, working with the public guardian's office, writing guidance for the profession.

And sort of just being a sort of a thought leader, I suppose, and say, I guess it's a culmination of running a successful team, bringing in the work and being a thought leader led to me then being able to become a partner. You have to, you, you have to prove it before you're given it. I suppose they, that's what, that's how I made that step.[00:24:00]

Ellie: Thank you. That's interesting. So I suppose, would it be correct to say that it's. It's never really a surprise when you have that progression 'cause you've been like working towards and almost kind of functioning as if you are a partner

Holly: to me and for, for everybody that I know at my level, it's, it's interesting 'cause they say at law school, keep in touch with everyone that you're friends with 'cause you dunno they're gonna be the decision makers in the future.

That sort of stuff. And the thing, I'm just gonna safe for instance, I like them, you know, like I'm not a strategic person from that perspective. Actually, it's weird. Over the last sort of five years. We've all become partners or we're going to become partners. And like you can, you can see it's gonna happen like a year or two before it happens.

Um, and like normally law firms are very open about these things and they're like, you'll be having your appraisals. And they'll be saying, what, what's your career objectives? And like, how can we support you to meet those? And like you'd be working towards it together and sort of like filling in the gaps in your skill sets to get you either that line, I guess.

So it's, it's not a cloak. It shouldn't be a cloak and dagger [00:25:00] thing. It should just be quite openly discussed In indoor firms, it's sort not that extra stress. It's stressful enough, you know, you wanna be somewhere that supports you and um, and, and helps you further your career, you know?

Ellie: Yeah. 'cause also sounds like just the process is such a skills development, as you were saying, bringing in sort of business and things like this.

Holly: So you like taking on new skills. You

 are, you are a better lawyer if, if, if a firm. Invest in you and gives you training and gives you coaching and you know, and, and, and brings you on as that rounded professional, then you're a better lawyer and you're going to be a better supervisor and you're going to be a better mentor, and then you're gonna bring on the next generation.

So it's investing in itself by investing in you.

Ellie: Yeah. Thank you. That makes a lot of sense. I, I feel like, um, obviously continually hearing about partners, but I was never quite sure kind of what that process. Means or entails and, and how it looks as a progression. So thank you very much. Again, a slight, a slight kind of shift in focus, but I kind of wanted to focus now on working as a [00:26:00] therapist alongside the legal career, and that feels like a really unique.

Sort of different aspect. Yeah. And yeah. And how these two careers kind of work together and whether you feel they compliment each other.

Holly: Oh, they do. Yeah. And in, in a way that I had never anticipated when I first started out. I think life, the, the more I, the more I. Realize that like it's just all a journey really.

And like you look back on things and you're like, oh, that makes sense now. Like that's why that ends up in that way. But when you're doing it, you're sort of just slightly feeling your way. And I, um, I had a sort of like a mental breakdown about five years ago now because of basic trigger by PTSD. So I had, my brother was nearly killed in a car crash nine years ago, and he has a, a severe brain injury.

And it, I ended up being on the, the family side of the fence when it comes to brain injuries rather than the professional side of the fence. I was literally working at my, at my first law firm at three o'clock in the afternoon on a, on a, on a Monday on the 4th [00:27:00] of April, and I got a call from my dad saying it's, well, we don't know if he alive, one i's been in the car crash for air lifted to Southampton Neuro ICU, and I was like, no.

The world changed on six months. Yeah. And in the way that women often do, I. Just kept going. I, I had a 1-year-old at the time. She just turned one and I went back to work really quickly. I just got a promotion and I, yeah, just been promoted to senior associate, actually. And I, yeah, just started a new firm and I just went back to my normal life, supported my parents, supported my brother, and like just worked hard, had another baby, got on with my life and.

During COVID, it was on my daughter's, my, my, my middle daughter's second birthday, I just fell off my, fell outta my tree basically. I just suddenly became really unwell. I quite catatonic. Couldn't get out of bed. My swim [00:28:00] very dis disorientated. I could, had really low cognitive function. I wasn't really able to.

To partake in any social engagement. I was really not in a good place at all. And my husband said to me, I think you should go and see a therapist. I was like, I'm not going to. I'll be, I'm from very stoic, just dust myself off and keep going, you know? And yeah. And in the end, after about four weeks this, I decided to go and see a therapist and she was like, I think, I think you got PTSD.

Really, it was so obvious, like at the time, like looking back on it, I had heart palpitations. I was exhausted, I was hypervigilant, so I was like shocked at everything all of the time. I was really anxious. I went into catatonia, which is sort of like your body moves very slowly, completely knackered, like it's a, a real flight or fight response basically.

And so I had the amazing therapy from her. It's only eight sessions, and included something called rewind therapy, which is where you. Process the trauma by [00:29:00] watching yourself, watching yourself on a TV screen, the, the worst moment of the trauma, basically. And then you rewind and watch it again, and then rewind.

Watch it again. Rewind. Watch it again in different circumstances, and then see the the first happy moment afterwards. And it processes the trauma from sort of living in your current part of your brain and, and, and having all the emotions that are associated with that amygdala and the fight or fight and like the, the constant state of hyperawareness and, and threat.

And it puts it into, basically it processes it like our mwi in your dream, into your, into your, in your memory, into your longer part, longer term, part of your memory. And so say, remember what happened, but I'm not traumatized by it anymore. It's not currents to me and say, no, I work. Two weeks. Is that completely normal?

You know? So like if she can do that with me in that period of time, there is so many peoples and working can with traumatize families and traumatized people all of the [00:30:00] time. That all I do and actually how you communicate with people that are experiencing trauma or have experienced trauma. It's very different to how you communicate with people that don't, aren't experiencing trauma.

Because of just the impact of, of trauma on, on the brain, it, it sort of changes where the blood flows and the high level cognitive function communication, whether or not someone wants to isolate it, had impact on the, on the, on the body in terms of your digestive issues and headaches and tensions. People with trauma get sort of fibromyalgia or me, like it has a huge impact on people.

And I thought, gosh, there's, there's a real way here that I could combine my, my skills as a lawyer, my experience as someone, one that's had therapy and my family knowledge of what it's like to have somebody in that awful situation. And also, I've experienced burnout and, you know, really long working hours.

Building a successful career. And I thought, you know, I, I, I'm quite uniquely placed here to offer something quite [00:31:00] unusual, and so I trained as a hypnotherapist, but a solution focused hypnotherapist, and I'm very somatically based, which means I bring the body into the work that I do a lot of the time in terms of, I think we, we spend a lot of time.

So ignoring our bodies and sort of like treating them a bit as our slaves and like just living in our cognitive states all of the time and we sort of don't actually listen to our instincts very much or what we're feeling about things as a key into what their body might be telling us about decisions we're making.

Sometimes we sort of know that we're in the wrong job or we know we're in the wrong relationship. Because something here, there's sort like a little bell that's going off and we ignore it 'cause it's much more convenient just to keep going in the way that we'd plan to keep going. Um, and so I work a lot with that.

And also just getting people back to their core beliefs and their core values and their core sense of self. You know, where we start from rather than. [00:32:00] The person we become because society expects us to act in particular ways. And the introductions like your mum saying to you, oh good girl, you did your homework.

We, we, we, we love you for doing your homework. We're really proud of you. And actually it might not be something that you really wanted to do. You sort just did it 'cause it made other people happy. And so it's sort of Acra example, but there are many examples of that along the way where you may act a particular way because you're seeking approval from external sources, whether it's Instagram.

Your friendship groups, your families, whatever. And so it's just getting people back to what their core values are, their core beliefs, and trusting in themselves, having that faith in their bodies and their faith, in their ability to navigate what's right for them. And I find that when you take yourself back to that pace, you automatically deal with things like anxiety, automatically deal with things like trauma and stress because.

When you take the layers away and you get back to that place of grounding, those [00:33:00] things tend to to fall away. So that's why I became a therapist and I have found it immensely helpful in my legal work. I, I can't emphasize enough what a difference it's made to how I interact with my clients and my colleagues, and.

Everybody around me like it's, I think everybody when they walk into a room has a real impact on that room. And if you can walk into a room and bring a place of safety with you and a place of reassurance and openness, and provide that safe space for clients, particularly the clients that I'm working with who are all experiencing trauma, or I'm always an emergency purchase.

No one wants to talk to me. Because of the, it means something's gone wrong. Really. Then you create that space of listening and [00:34:00] engagement and relationship building and trust. And so I haven't gone to court since I qualified as a, as a, as a therapy actually since I started my therapy course. I, I personally haven't had anxiety since, and I used to get anxiety, I mean, awful anxiety like.

At night, like hypervigilance, like panicking about things that are gonna happen, like planning out things to try and prevent the worst case scenario happening because since I've, you know, done that work on myself, and so yeah, it's, it's phenomenal the difference it's made to my legal career, but also it allows me to embrace that creative side of myself and that empathetic side of myself and that I'm not doing it to.

Be profitable or to be, I don't know, to, I'm not doing it for anyone else's game. I'm doing it because I feel that it's the right thing for me to be doing and therefore I get a huge sense of, I dunno, self, self-worth [00:35:00] from doing it. And it just instinctively feels like the right thing to be doing at the moment.

So I'm just making it work. So, so I've gone down to three days a week as a lawyer and I do therapy on my. Non-working days basically, and evenings and cans and that. So, yeah. So it's working for me.

Ellie: Thank you so much for sharing your, your personal experience and it's, so I can definitely see both the, the huge kind of personal impacts and I'm sure the impact on those you interact with in your, your career and also outside and the way you kind of explained and described, I guess.

The real physical like felt, symptoms people experience when they're having anxiety and all these other issues. And yeah, I think when you're talking about kind of graming in the body, we see how that be such a powerful tool. We just kind of do ignore, I guess, people ignore the physical symptoms that they are experiencing when they're in these kind of really negative mindsets and so important see her to not do so,

Holly: and there's a new score of thought at the moment [00:36:00] that you can't treat anxiety with simple counseling that you can't, like, it's not effective to treat anxiety just with psychological therapy because I think anxiety is a really good example of this. I, I feel anxiety here with that. And I hadn't really thought about where I felt it until I, someone said to me like, when you're anxious right, what, what's the impact on your body?

Like, how does it feel? And I was like, I dunno. Comes. Even I'd been experience a anxiety for years. Do you know what I mean? And then when I'd identify like what it felt like where I was holding it, and actually what it felt like to not feel anxious 'cause I'd forgotten what it felt like to not feel anxious, I'd forgotten what it felt like to feel calm.

'cause I. Constantly in that state of anxiety and stress, and it's one of the first things I do with people is just teach them how to feel calm. I think we've forgotten what that feels like in our bodies. So's this new school of thought thought. It's like, yes, deal with the psych, the the psychological reasons [00:37:00] you're feeling anxious and if it being burnout out and stress and you, it then tick things you're anxious about, if it's like a, a disconnect between what you're wanting and, and you know, and what's been delivered, et cetera.

But also you've got to teach your body what it feels like to not feel anxious, because otherwise you'll still wake up the next morning. I've gotta feel anxious about. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember. I need to feel anxious about that. And then you'll get into like a circle basically of, of anxiety and say, I think yeah, that there's, there's a lot of agreement at the moment in this sort of the bio social psycho world that you've got to, you gotta treat the body as, as a whole rather than as just mine.

We're not dualists, go back to Western philosophy. Uh, it can be a Plato that of Decartes. We are not, we, we are not separate. Entities of mind and body. We are one. You know, and actually you can really only make progress if you, if you treat everything mm-hmm. As one rather than a competing between body and mind.

Ellie: Thank you. And did you, I, I'm [00:38:00] kind of wondering, did you train while also like continuing your legal career?

Holly: personality? You've got to do everything at once? I had a newborn baby. My, my youngest is two. And I did my course and I became a partner and I was doing a huge build at home as well, going into the attic.

So like I had to move out the house for a couple of months and my husband had his second book published and was writing his third all at the same time because, and I had two other children obviously as well, the older ones that I'm looking after as well. Obviously I don't ignore them. And yeah, so like you could do everything all at once.

Yeah, absolutely Recommend it. But I'm that sort of person and yeah, that, that's, that's coherent for me. That's, that's authentic for me. You know? And actually, I've learned how to build in space for myself and to have to make sure that I unwind and I ground myself. And I've actually recently taken that running, [00:39:00] which has been a savior for me in terms of giving myself that mental space, you know, just to process things and giving myself that calm and that silence.

I, I find if my body's moving. Then, then my mind can be calmer. I'm not someone that's very good at sitting still, and I'm not very good at sort of sitting still and meditating and doing that traditional sense of meditating. I sort of get fidgety and anxious and things like that. So if I'm physically doing something like Pilates or Hung or running or something like that, then I get that mental space.

You know, you've just gotta find what works for you. There's no right or wrong way. I, I find journaling helpful for that purpose. 'cause I'm writing, I'm, I'm moving, you know, and therefore I'm processing, you know.

Ellie: And I feel like having just finished like exams in uni, having exercise breaks is such a kind of endorphin lift as well.

Holly: yeah, absolutely. And really keeps you through as well

Ellie: Thank you so much. I think you've kind of explained then what your week looks like, how, how it's split between and yeah, it, I mean, it's [00:40:00] really impressive to see this different balance of things. Do you feel that you have to kind of.

When you are going from a day where you've worked as a lawyer to then, let's say the day after you're doing a therapist, is it a real kind of mental shift or are you, does it kind of feel like it just assimilates with each other?

Holly: Biggest challenge I have found is in law, people come to you to tell them what to do.

They want you to solve their problems, and that's what you're being paid for. And in therapy, you absolutely cannot tell people what to do. You've got to give them the skills and the resources and the self knowledge and belief to solve their own problems. 'cause otherwise, without you, they'll just fall into the same problems again going forward.

So you've got to support and empower and say, that's been the biggest challenge is that change in questions and narrative, what's expected of me. But I find being a therapist, very calming because you've got to be calm. [00:41:00] To offer therapy to somebody, you can't be agitated. And so actually, I, I ground myself.

I did like a grounding exercise, which I've actually put on my website weirdly 'cause I just find it so helpful, a centering exercise before I go into therapy with someone just to just, it's so five, four minutes just to send to myself and just focus on the room that I'm in, the person that I'm with, and just completely calm my energy into that situation.

So I find, I think I'd find it hard to switch between the two. If I was doing like a client meeting for law and then a therapy meeting, that would be very hard, I think. I think it could be done, but I find I have to change my energy and change my, my outlook and output, I suppose, quite consciously. I, I have to be conscious of it.

Ellie: Thank you. Thank you. That's really helpful. And now I'll make sure to include in the show notes for anyone listening to the episode. Thank you. [00:42:00] And your website.

Holly: Right. And my blog helpful as well actually. 'cause I've designed it with really busy people in mind because like kind know there's blogs are like super long and like they're the best one in the world.

I'd like to read them, but like I haven't got much time. So like my blogs are like five minute reads or less. Like really clear things that you can do to try and make yourself feel better now in them that take five minutes or less. So like they're just sort of like a toolbox basically that you can build up of things that might be helpful and a little bit of science as to why.

'cause I like to know why things help me rather than just being told them. So like you might wanna put that on as well 'cause it's just designed to be a helpful resource for people basically. Yeah. And so, yeah, it's, and I, I found, I think probably I would've stopped being a lawyer 'cause I would've been too burnt out had I not.

Become a therapist alongside it. And so for me it's made law a sustainable career rather than a career that had to end when I was 40. Um, and I think a lot I'm seeing an increasing amount of [00:43:00] people being a lawyer and something else. Mm-hmm. And I think it's probably a trend that's gonna continue.

Ellie: Yeah.

Thank you. That's such an interesting. Sort of taking you on something but actually has allowed you to contin, like taking on additional role has allowed you to continue with the, the role you did. I thought the distinction you made between being a lawyer is essentially sort of telling people what to do and, and I'm sorry people weren't so hard problems, you quit.

I guess it's so true. If, if I was being untrained currently myself, if I was going to a lawyer, you know, I would, I'm leaning on them for their expertise. But obviously therapist is teaching you to do certain things as you can help yourself. In the present and in the future. Thank you very much. This has been really, really interesting.

And my final question, we tend to ask a similar sort of question at the end of most of our episodes. What goal, main advice would be to aspiring solicitors, but I think in particular to focus on what your main advice to be to solicitors who have the kind of same drive that you have of wanting to make sure they have a career that's helping people and they have really [00:44:00] specific kind of interests, sort of the court of protection or maybe aspects in family, family law.

Holly: It's fully your heart. Like, don't, don't be attracted by the bright lights. Don't be attracted by the big salaries that corporate law can give you. It's really hard to get out of the golden handcuffs. Like I, I know lots of people who really wanted to be criminal lawyers or you know, mental capacity lawyers went to health lawyers.

We were like, oh, I'll just qualify into commercial. Just, you know, do that for a couple of years and I'll, then I'll transition across. Mm-hmm. But then once you've got the nice house and the kids in private school and the nice car and the gym membership, it can be quite hard to then transition across to something that isn't so glamorous and isn't necessarily so well paid.

And you just sort of, yeah, I, you just got to follow your heart and stick to your guns and like. I feel like I compromised, you know, like I, like I initially when I [00:45:00] went into mental capacity law, thought I would be doing sort of end of life cases and sort of euthanasia cases and the more, the welfare side of things.

And so when I talked to my colleagues that do that, I'm like, oh, right. I co, I compromise by doing more the financial litigation side of things. But it's funny, it's like I don't regret it. It's just not quite where I thought I would be. And actually I, I love what I do, so it's wonderful, but actually. Don't, yeah, don't, don't you feel like you can't just have absolute belief that you can and you will like, just, just follow what you want and, and you will get there.

Ellie: Thank you very much and thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Holly: Absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.