Our Episode Transcripts are produced by Descript. Some words/dialogue may not be transcribed with 100% accuracy.
Ellie: [00:00:00] In this episode of Law Talks, Katie Davies joins me to discuss studying the SQE. Katie recently completed the SQE Part 2 and has just started her training contract at Clifford Chance.
AD: Powered by LawPods.
Ellie: You may have noticed we replaced our ads in favor of our new sponsor, Lawpods. Lawpods is the podcast marketing agency catering to the biggest brands in law. Offer your modern, organic marketing tool to connect with clients. From marketing strategy and simple recording right from your desk, Lawpods takes the hassle out of having a world class podcast.
Ellie: So thank you so much, Katie, for joining us on an episode of Law Talks, although you're very familiar with how the episodes work. How are you? It's really good to be here. So obviously today we are going to be talking [00:01:00] about the SQE and just essentially what you've been getting up to in progressing your law career.
It's a really exciting topics. And to start us all off, Can you just remind our listeners of your pathway to starting the SQE?
Katie: Yeah, sure. Okay, so I think the best place to start is just by kind of clarifying what the SQE is. And the SQE stands for Solicitors Qualifying Examinations. It was introduced, I think, very, very recently over the past two, three years, and it's a new way of qualifying as a solicitor in England and Wales.
So anyone who wants to become a solicitor in England and Wales will have to pass the SQE exams. So for me, that's what I've been doing this year. I've been doing a course at the University of Law, which is a Masters of Law that also incorporates the two SQE [00:02:00] exams.
So SQE1 and SQE2.
Ellie: That's really nice and clear. And I think we've said it so many times in the podcast, but always good to hear about how you get into law with not just starting immediately with a law degree. But yeah, the SQE, I'm excited to learn more about it because actually it's a topic I know so little about.
Katie: I actually think what you've said there is very interesting about how it's interesting going. non law, rather than a law degree. And this is actually one of the main differentiators of the SQE. So even if you have done a law undergraduate degree, you will still need to complete the SQE2 exams. Which I think is quite interesting. Previously if you had done a law degree, you could go on straight to do the professional exams, which were the LPC. And if you hadn't done a law degree, you had to do the conversion course, the GDL, Graduate Diploma in Law, [00:03:00] before you could then go and take those professional exams as with the SQE, there isn't actually a requirement to do the conversion course, that GDL, before you take those exams.
Which is quite interesting, because for some people that means rather than doing two years after their non law undergraduate, they'll only have to do one year slash the SQE. I just think that's quite interesting to note.
Ellie: Yeah, definitely, and good for people to be, to be aware of the, the changes.
So kind of going like a little bit, a little bit before the SQE to talk about like training contracts.
Could you tell our listeners what the process was like applying for training contracts?
Katie: Yeah, sure. So I am very lucky to have secured a training contract, and one of the benefits of my training contract is that my firm very kindly pays for my studying [00:04:00] fees and the cost of covering the exams, which is a huge benefit because these exams are not cheap if you are self funding.
So. Securing a training contract for me was something that I was really set on doing because I wouldn't have been able to afford to fund these exams myself and really to qualify. So for me, I was determined to find a training contract and, and yeah, have, have a way to actually become a lawyer.
So for me, I initially applied, for training contracts in my second year of university and my whole first year applying was completely not successful. I did get accepted onto a few open days which are sort of one day placements. Mine were online over zoom because this was back in peak times of COVID but that, [00:05:00] that was nice to get accepted onto those.
Cause you did have to apply for those as well, but in terms of a training contract, nothing concrete, I was really disheartened, but I basically decided that I would just apply again the next year and take the time in to kind of understand what was going wrong. Then when it came to the second application season, I was successful, which was brilliant.
I think I did a fair few applications and it's difficult because part of it is a numbers game with training contracts. But equally, each application has to be of the highest quality and standard. So it was very time consuming. And I think what made it a little bit easier for me was having spent that gap in between the two application seasons to kind of figure out actually how I could write about myself and why I wanted to do law, [00:06:00] and specifically commercial law.
And how I could write that well and explain that well. So that, that helped me a lot.
Ellie: Yeah, thank you. So I think it's clear it's obviously like a growth process and something going in to be aware of as a lawyer is just because the first time you don't get it, or it feels like you failed just to keep going, because I think it's a part of everyone's, like, pathway as a lawyer.
I don't No, many people who just, every time they apply first time have gotten something. So yeah, always really good to, to hear someone who's stuck with it and got a massive success story. So you've talked a little bit about kind of costs and those kinds of things, but other than that, how does having like a confirmed training contract impact your kind of experience while you're studying the SQE.
Katie: Yeah. So as I mentioned, cost is the big one. The SQE exams are expensive.
So for the assessments up to August, 2024, so this [00:07:00] month, the costs have been 1,789 pounds for SQE one and 2,766 pounds for SQE two. And these are both going up from September, 2024. And that's just the cost of the assessments alone. So you can self study for the SQE and you don't need to go to a university and do a course.
Obviously, self studying is hard and the benefit of a training contract is that my firm, at least, wants us to go and do a course so that we are taught it rather than having to teach ourselves. Having said that, for people who haven't got a training contract, The fact you can self study does mean that it can be more affordable, in terms of the exams because you just have the assessment fees rather than assessment fees and course fees.[00:08:00]
So that, is one consideration, and I guess it just depends on personal preference. For me, I work better with more of a structured process. I liked going into university. I liked being with people. And having someone to chat to about what I was confused over and having a library I could work in. But other people, particularly if people are studying part time and working to fund the assessments, then self studying can work really well for them. Specifically for me, one nice aspect of The SQE experience was that I was in a cohort of my future colleagues, studying together. So, everyone in my training contract cohort split into three different classes. And yeah, it was exclusively us, which meant [00:09:00] that it was a really nice time. To kind of bond and make friends.
And I think the SQE is so hard that kind of having that collective spirit and kind of knowing you're in it together does make a big difference. So that was, that was really nice. I think as well, it was quite nice during The last few months, because alongside the studying, my firm ran sort of insight days once a week on the different practice areas.
So each week it would be a different practice area, for example, global financial markets, and we'd have people from, you know, debt capital market speaking and private equity. And then the next week it would be more 'nicher' seats, such as like tax or IP [00:10:00] (intellectual property). So that was a real benefit because, I think it's so hard to kind of know what work you actually will be doing as a trainee solicitor. So those, having those days dedicated to different practice areas did really help me gain an understanding of which one I'd want to do. So that was, yeah, quite a nice aspect. But thankfully came later on in the year.
Because I think if those had been earlier with the exams, it would have been quite stressful.
Ellie: Yeah, I think, I can imagine so. It sounds like a very intense year, but I can definitely see the merit of studying it. Obviously, you have to weigh that up with cost, but it's like studying at university and having those kind of greater in depth experiences.
And as you said, getting the chance to meet people is I mean, first of all, just nice, but also it's always so important in law like sharing your [00:11:00] experience and hearing other people's experience. So, I mean, you touched a little bit, you mentioned during this interview, the LPC and I suppose that's kind of the thing that everyone's been talking about you know, how the SQE is coming in, replacing the LPC.
So could you explain like the difference between the SQE compared to the LPC?
Katie: Yeah, so the legal practice course known as the LPC, was the previous route to qualification as a solicitor in England and Wales, which has since been replaced bythe SQE. I think the best way to explain the difference between the two courses is to go back to the overarching kind of purpose of why it was changed because it is a little bit complicated. So, the Solicitor's Regulation Authority The SRA are the body responsible for, you know, regulating solicitors in England and Wales.
And they kind of came to the conclusion [00:12:00] that under the old system, graduate recruiters were deciding who could and could not become a lawyer. Well, I say that solicitor, because In order to qualify, you had to secure a training contract and do two years work experience through a training contract. So, you would do the LPC if you were non law, you had to do the conversion course before that, and then you had to do the the training contract.
So, the SRA wanted to remove that requirement that basically it was graduate recruiters who were deciding who could become solicitors. And as such, they decided to overhaul the program, the LPC, with the SQE. And the SQE does not require you to have a training contract in order to be a qualified solicitor.
So what you need is two years [00:13:00] qualifying work experience. So, for example, if you are a paralegal who's been working in a firm for five years, you could then sit the SQE exams, pass them both, and then you would be qualified as a solicitor because you've passed the SQE exams and you've got two years work experience.
Having said all of this, the SQE is assessed to the standard, of a day one qualified solicitor i. e. where you are after two years of working in that sphere As the LPC was assessed to the standard of a day one trainee solicitor i.e. the first day you're working in a law firm. So that has meant that it is a lot harder.
That's probably maybe that's controversial to say because that you know, the LPC wasn't necessarily easy, but it is assessed to a higher standard You The whole design of the SQE was kind of that you can [00:14:00] sit the exams throughout your training contract, or after in the case of people who, you know, have already, are already working at firms and have that qualifying experience.
But the UK firms are kind of reluctant to adopt that approach. Shockingly, the legal industry is sticking with what it knows. And so what's kind of happened is that these people who were previously going to be doing exams assessed the standard of a day one trainee and now being assessed to the standard of a day one qualified to solicitor, before they then start their training contract.
So in that sense, it has kind of upped the pressure on those looking to secure training contracts. Yeah, I hope that makes sense. It is a bit confusing.
Ellie: And I think, like, I mean, part of the commentary on it has been that the, the change at times can be confusing for people who are, like, trying to work out.
I know some people, like, are still finishing, the LPC and have been studying it recently, even as the [00:15:00] SQE has come in and then it's going to gradually drop off. So I think it is a overall slightly confusing topic, but it definitely, it made sense to me and then focusing again in on the SQE since that's what you've done, what was the process like applying for it? Is it hard to. Like, I know because obviously you've studied at university, so it's different to just taking the exams. Is it hard to get on? Are there like entry requirements? Does it take a long time to apply?
Katie: Yeah, so I guess there's kind of two aspects to that question.
Which is, what's the process of applying to a university course that covers the SQE content? And then what's the process of booking the SQE exams like? So, in terms of applying for a course, it's kind of similar to undergraduate applications. You know, it might require a personal statement, but kind of a lot more a lot less intense [00:16:00] than your undergraduate one, as these universities that provide the courses are quite keen to have people the main thing is having an undergraduate degree, and then you can study these courses.
The booking of the SQE exams, it's a little, it can be a little bumpy. I think because it's new, and like you mentioned, there is the whole transitional phase as well there definitely are a few bumps that need to be sort of smoothed out, but effectively, kind of, you can, booking opens on a certain date that is on the SRO website and published in advance.
And on that date, you go onto your SRA account and try and secure a slot. Importantly, you have to have passed SQE1 before you can sit SQE2. So, SQE1 is assessed by single best answer questions. So what that basically means is [00:17:00] multiple choice questions, but all of them could be right, which one's the best.
It's quite similar to, I think, the exams that medics take. Yeah, that sounds, from my understanding, that sounds similar. Yeah. So that's SQE1 and it's split into, within SQE1, it's split into FLK1 and FLK2, which stands for Functioning Legal Knowledge. In effect, it's, the volume you're being assessed on is so huge that it would not be possible for you to do it in one exam, so that's why they split it into those two exams.
And then for SQE2 it's roughly, I think, 16 exams that are assessed practically through written assessments and oral assessments. So there's lots of different kind of exams you need to [00:18:00] book. The first one being your SQE1, FLK1 and 2. You can put a preference for the date you want to sit it on. So, the assessment dates are usually, I think it might be two weeks now.
There's two weeks with each day hosting assessments. You can put a preference for that and you can put a preference for locations too. So, you might not get your first preference, which is something to consider. So, for me, I ended up sitting my assessment in Slough, having initially put London as a preference.
Luckily, not too far, but I have heard of cases where it is much further. I think my advice, cause people kind of describe it as like trying to book Taylor Swift tickets, cause you're literally put in a queue of thousands of people trying to book these exams. My advice is to just book a date and, location, [00:19:00] even if it's not what you wanted, say it is, you know, up north in the country and you don't want to travel there, just book it.
And then, in my experience, slots kind of change and open up later on. So as long as you've secured a slot, you might be able to then change it later on down the line. And you know, worst case scenario, you have to travel. And I do think there are some grants available from the SRA to support that. And if you are lucky enough to be with a firm, then they probably will cover that too.
So yeah, that's FLK1 and FLK2 for the SQE1. And then the SQE2 is, like I said, made up of those oral assessments and written assessments. The written assessments, it's very, very similar to the SP1 location and dates, but for the oral assessments, there are, they take place in a different week, and there are only, I think, four assessment [00:20:00] centres in the UK where you can do them.
So, I mean, I would admit, like, the fact that they navigate these people across the country, doing in person exams, on different days with different topics. It is a logistical nightmare. So I would say that they have actually managed to implement the SQE2 quite well. And I understand why it's limited at the moment in terms of assessment centers, but hopefully in the future, more will open because. for anyone who doesn't live near those assessment centers, you will need to plan in advance how you are going to approach that.
Yeah.
Ellie: So yeah, that is quite an in depth explanation.I think it's really helpful because you're coming to the end of the SQE. Well, you're, you're basically finished. It's really helpful hearing, like, exactly your understanding of all the things that you noted during the time, because [00:21:00] I mean, you are one of the first cohorts.
So it's really interesting hearing what you've been, what you've been up to, cause I've had no clue. So again, kind of like a more basic question, but again, cause you studied it at university. What, what does your average week look like? Is it something that you can do while having a job, like part time job?
Did you have a huge amount of commitments? What is it like sitting at university? Is it similar to previous studying that you've done, is that like a big kind of culture of different societies, or is it more just turn up and study?
Katie: So I think it depends on the university you go to. There are also several Online courses specifically designed for the SQE. So it kind of depends what, what you do or if you self study. That will be the massive, you know, factor that affects what your week, average week looks like. For me, I didn't really, I didn't get involved in any [00:22:00] societies.
It was very much just, you know, postgraduate professional qualifications. Let's get this done. But I think, you know, others probably do. And it's extremely different to studying at undergraduate level. There is no critical analysis of, you know, the thoughts of academics that have written a paper, you don't, you know, do that kind of evaluation.
It really is going through the law, applying it, and learning it. So, at my university, they structured it through prepare, engage, and consolidate. So, the prepare stage, you would have readings online tutorials, kind of tasks you had to complete online on the topic. You'd then for the engage stage, go [00:23:00] into a class, which would be effectively a two hour tutorial where you go through different tasks, in a classroom setting and your tutor will kind of help you go over the answers at the end. And then after the class is a consolidate stage, where you have to do various, you know, test your knowledge questions or things like that. Specifically at the university of law they have their own bank of single best answer questions which is a huge advantage of U Law as a institution, I think it is possible to gain access to it without a course, but I'm not entirely sure on that.
But the main thing is that because it's new, there are onlyspecimen papers from the SRA, on, on their website in, you know, that you can look at and, these are [00:24:00] huge exams for people, you know, they're professional exams that your training contract might be contingent on, slash you just, even if it's not, you know, it costs money to sit them.
So it's a big investment and obviously you're going to want to do as much practice as you can. So, you know, that was something they would set, but also you would be expected to go through in your own time, kind of going through these different questions. I would say that in my experience the University of Law's questions were reflective of the exam.
However I did find that if you knew the law, you could get to the answer, the correct answer in the Ulaw questions, as in my experience of the SQE questions, it was harder, even if you knew the law, to get to the correct answer. And I personally found the questions I [00:25:00] got harder than what was in the specimen paper by the SRA.
It's hard to talk about because you do sign a non disclosure agreement at the start of your SQE exams, and obviously if, you know, a breach of that could prevent you from being admitted to the role of solicitors, cause you know, it's really important that, you know, integrity, honesty, et cetera. So it is quite hard to find out information about the SQE.
But I think. That kind of gives a good overview of the, the kind of style of questions. I also personally, because my course was funded, I was able to purchase revision guides which, you know, can add up as a cost.
Ellie: Yeah, definitely.
Katie: Particularly given that, so those topics in the functioning legal knowledge one and two for, [00:26:00] for the SQE1 exam, which also forms the basis of the SQE2 exam, you have the topics of business law and practice, dispute resolution, contract, tort, the legal system, public law, legal services, property practice, wills and the administration of estates, solicitor's accounts, land law, trusts, and criminal law and practice. So there's a lot of topics and those, yeah, those revision guides can add up. But I found particularly the revised SQE books helpful as well as the U Law textbooks, manuals, which are available for anyone to purchase.
Very helpful. The level of detail in the U Law textbooks is what you are required to know as the revised SQE revision guides [00:27:00] obviously don't have quite all the detail you need to know, but sometimes, you know, it's so overwhelming with that many subjects that sometimes You just need a simpler explanation to then build on and get to that level of detail.
So for me, the combination of those two resources were kind of my backbone of of studying. And if you are in a position where you can't afford to, you know, invest in some resources, I think it is worth doing so. I also wanted to just say, as a piece of advice, quite often people say that the SQE specification, you know, is really vague.
And therefore I think they kind of disregard it a bit. But, so you can just get the SQE specification on on their website if you Google it. And specifically, it's the legal knowledge tabs, [00:28:00] which I found really helpful because, if you think about it, they cannot assess you on anything that's not there.
So the way that specification is worded specifically can really help you in guiding your work. So I would definitely recommend actually just, you know, copying and pasting that specification into your own word document, breaking it up by the different topics, and using that as your personal structure. You know, if you are studying on a course, it won't be in that order, but you can mark which ones you've covered, which ones you've practiced questions on, and then which ones you feel, you know, confident on or need to come back to.
Yeah, I would, I really do think that it is more helpful than people give it credit for and it's something that massively helped me. [00:29:00]
Ellie: Thank you, I think that's really very practical advice and because, I mean, there's always revision guides for different courses. And, you know, you can like decide not, but sometimes they're just not helpful.
So hearing that you actually found it super helpful and that it was worth the potential cost of buying them is definitely, definitely helpful advice, and I guess, but people want to also self study knowing that revision guides are also useful.
Katie: I would say as a quick note you will need to do your own research in addition to whatever resources you use, because it's so new, these resources aren't perfect and there are mistakes, you know?
So in both those two resources mentioned, you know, there were very occasional mistakes. So it's just worth noting that, you know, you can't, you can't be entirely reliant on them. I just wanted to make that clear because I don't want people to think that, you know, if they get this book, then if they just memorize that, it will be perfect because it's not quite [00:30:00] accurate.
But on the whole, they're, they're very comprehensive.
No, that's definitely super helpful to be aware of, and I guess kind of just finishing, finishing up, you've talked a lot about the FQE, you've talked about like the practical side of studying it and what you found helpful and also I guess we've discussed how it's really new and there's some element of, not everyone knows all the aspects of it, and it can be confusing at times but was there any aspects or are there any aspects of the SQE that you just weren't expecting and took you by surprise? I think there's two that come to mind. One is potentially a little bit negative, but It's, in terms of the negative one, because you have to have passed the SQE1 before you can sit the SQE2, and because I was on a course that meant you went, you did the SQE1 exam, and then literally the next week you went straight into teaching for SQE2.
I found it really [00:31:00] hard during the period of studying for the SQE2 and not knowing if I'd passed the SQE1 because if I hadn't passed the SQE1 then all of the work I was doing wouldn't be relevant for a while because I would have to reset the SQE1. So I kind of hadn't really thought about the timings of results and how that would impact me.
Similarly, the wait for the SQE2 results is really, really long. And it's really, really hard during, during those times to motivate yourself. And it just kind of took me by surprise because it wasn't something I'd considered. So, for someone who is maybe self studying, you know, you could potentially think about structuring it around those results days so that you don't have to be [00:32:00] revising content you might not potentially need for a while.
There were some benefits to it. I mean, luckily I did pass. So, you know, it was great because I could, I was cracking on with my SQE2 sooner than if I'd waited, but it was a really tough time. So that's a slightly negative aspect. And then the other aspect that I wasn't really expecting, which is maybe a bit more positive.
Was the oral assessments in SQE2. I knew that they were part of the SQE2, but I was so laser focused on that functioning legal knowledge that is required for the SQE1 and forms of basis for SQE2 that I kind of didn't really think about it much until I was, you know, close to sitting them. And it is, it was quite, I wouldn't say fun because that's a bit of a stretch, but you do four advocacy exams [00:33:00] two in the context of criminal law and practice, and two in the context of land and property law.
And you do one interview and one advocacy for each. So the interview exam, you are literally given like some readings to do. You have however long to quickly look at it, and then you have to go straight into a role play assessment where you're playing the role of a solicitor and a client's come to see you about the problem.
Which was different and, you know, quite challenging in terms of thinking on your feet, but just an entirely differentassessment method that I'm not familiar with. And then the advocacy, is a role play exam where you are a solicitor who is speaking in court. Because solicitors have rights of audience in the lower courts of the uk. [00:34:00] So you could be a solicitor speaking in, say, a magistrate's court. It's not something that I really thought about going into commercial law because. You know, you traditionally associate advocacy oral advocacy with barristers.
And those who are, you know, training for the bar will be far more likely to have done moots and all of those mock sort of court roleplay situations. But for me, I hadn't really done much of that, and it was quite, it was quite interesting. For anyone who is, you know, at an earlier stage, like prior to the SQE, I also would say like, have a go at doing moots because I always ruled them out as like, Oh, well, I don't have time to do that because it's not really relevant to me.
Like it's not that relevant to me. So I'll just give it a miss. I was like, actually, I think if I'd done, even one moot during my conversion course, or undergraduate, [00:35:00] not that I did law undergraduate, but I'm sure I could have, you know, participated in something like that. I think it would have set me up well.
So yeah, I don't know if that's an aspect I, like, I expected it, but I also didn't. And it was fun in some ways, and also awful in others.
Ellie: Okay. No, that's very helpful. I think seeing the, the full range of things you have to be able to do during the SQE and yeah, I think, I mean, people traditionally think of mooting like on the barrister route, which obviously is probably quite outdated now.
And something that everyone should get involved in. So I think it's very helpful to flag that. But thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been lovely chatting to you and having, having you as a guest instead of a, instead of a co host.
Katie: Thank you so much for having me. I've loved it.
Comments