Our Episode Transcripts are produced by Descript. Some words/dialogue may not be transcribed with 100% accuracy.
Ellie: Perfect. Thank you so much for, for joining me on Law Talks. And to start us off when did you first become interested in personal injury as an attorney?
Jon: Boy, I became interested probably my [00:01:00] second year of law school. So we have three years of law school. My 1L year, I wanted to be a criminal lawyer because I wanted to kind of put together the two things I liked, which were politics and campaigning and then potentially the law.
Because I was a political science major in, in undergrad. So, and I worked on some campaigns. I was like, well, if I'm going to law school, then let's put, you know, one on one together But then I realized that criminal law was not for me for various different reasons.
And I could tell lots of stories about that. But so my 2L year, I interned for a personal injury firm in the Chicago area. And it was a fantastic experience. I guess I maybe say it was life changing because here I am now. So I got a taste of what that means and really got a understanding of how you can help people, what you can do, what you should do, [00:02:00] and that gave me the taste of it.
And then I changed my, my direction in law school and I started taking more pretrial trial, trial advocacy classes, and then ended up eventually working for a personal injury firm before I started my firm.
Ellie: Thank you. Yeah, I can really see the progression from starting off studying law and now starting your own firm, which, which is really interesting. I think maybe slightly less common in the UK, so it's always really interesting hearing about in the US people's process of doing that.
But to start us off could you tell us a little bit more about your sort of day to day work as a personal injury attorney and what a typical case might, might involve?
Jon: Oh boy. There's no typical case. I'll tell you that much. They're all individual, unique, just because we're dealing with people, you know, their, their personal injuries.
So it's a very personal experience. So they're very unique, I guess some of the fact scenarios can be typical. But yeah, let's go back to the [00:03:00] first part of the question. Day to day, what's my typical day today? You know, It changes as my kids get older because it depends on, and it depends on the time, the time of year in the summer,
it's different because my kids sleep in. So my day starts a little bit later. When school starts, my kids go to school. So my day starts earlier. And then it depends on their after school stuff as to what I'm what I'm going to do in the afternoon, evening. And luckily I have a fantastic wife who is able to help.
And, you know, when I'm in deposition to doing other things, you know as a team, we're able to get through the day. But when I get to the office, usually it's a matter of morning meetings. So we have morning meetings that kind of plans out either the day or else the week. And that's usually a different kind of meeting every day.
Thursday is the only day where I don't have a morning meeting and then it's [00:04:00] various meetings throughout the day or phone calls throughout the day with internal staff and in the afternoon, I, all of my attorneys and myself have a dedicated time that we choose that could be between three and four or three thirty and four thirty or whatever that we take phone calls so we can dedicate that time for our clients.
You know, so we can really be one on one and talking to clients as opposed to, you know, dropping, well, and sorry, once in a while, we'll drop everything and have to talk to somebody. But the goal is that you have a dedicated time to talk to your clients. So we can give them the. You know, the attention that they deserve.
So that's usually in the afternoon where I'll take about an hour, hour and a half and just spend 15 minute intervals talking to different clients or different on, on different topics that they might have. If there's anything that's, you know, like litigation based where things are in suit and there's a deposition or, there is a preparation for trial or mediation, for example, [00:05:00] that we'll, we'll have scheduled throughout the day. It doesn't matter when, because those are certainly more timely, timely things that have to really take precedent. That's the typical day. It's not really typical, but that's the typical day.
The typical client you know I would say, if you're looking at car crashes there's a lot of bad drivers in the world who are texting or on social media and they rear end somebody else. And the person who's the victim in that, the person who gets hit from the, from the back calls us and, They might have an ambulance ride to the hospital and then physical therapy or your doctor's visits thereafter.
And then they make a claim with insurance and then we help them through that process. That's the easiest one to describe. So I'll say that's somewhat typical. And then you have the, the more complex cases where it might be three or four cars involved in a crash. And then who is at fault, who hit whom [00:06:00] first there might be a left hand turn where, you know, you don't know whether somebody was speeding or who had the yellow light or the red light, you know, things like that.
Or in a roundabout who had the right of way, you know, those things where you have to gather evidence and get statements. Sooner rather than later, that's just car accidents. Then you have dog bites or premises liability. Trying to, you know, with dog bites and premises liability, trying to see whether somebody has any insurance because many times people just simply let their insurance lapse on their home or you might not know who owns a dog or it's a stray that was rescued and the person who is taking care of the dog never got insurance or they're a renter and they don't have renter's insurance and, you know, things like that.
Those are the, the not so typical, but there are a lot of cases that are like that. Honestly, recently, we've got a lot of cases, which is kind of odd to say, but a lot of ceiling collapse cases where people who live in apartment complexes in the Milwaukee or, you know, the, the, the [00:07:00] Wisconsin area, I'll say are living in an apartment complex and there's a water leakage on the second, third, fourth floor or whatever.
And that has affected the, the structure of the building. And then somebody is just sitting there making, you know sausage and eggs in the morning and the ceiling collapses on them. Or we've had cases where little kids are walking around and the ceiling collapses on them. I mean, just, just horrific situations where, you think you're safe in your apartment.
You know, you're safe in your home. And because of maybe the apartment complexes negligence for not maintaining or not having a proper maintenance plan, the ceiling collapses, or just because of the apartment person, the other tenant upstairs, their negligence. The, the ceiling or parts of the building collapse.
So those are ones that we've gotten more and more this, past summer. So that's just top of mind for me. I, I'm sure it's not, you know, dozens upon dozens of them, but it was enough to make me [00:08:00] say that that's getting to be more and more typical.
Ellie: Thank you. That really shows the, the range of different cases that come under.
Well, I suppose it's almost self explanatory with personal injury, there's going to be a whole range, but I mean, is there any particular, do you think there's any particular reason why those cases are cropping up this summer? Is it just like circumstance?
Jon: I, I think it's just circumstance. I, I honestly I, so there's a couple do I say it politely?
I guess I won't say it politely, slumlords in the Milwaukee area who own a lot of properties. And I think they've been gobbling up other properties and because they don't take care of the properties properly. They're, you know, over the past few years and especially since COVID, those apartment complexes have gone into disarray.
And now I think we're just seeing the results of that is that we've years of not caring. And maybe they're, you know, the, the landlords are squeezed tight. [00:09:00] They have to find profits somehow by laying off maintenance staff or not paying for inspections or not renovating like they should.
And then in 2023, 2024 the, these past couple of years, you've seen more and more just structural problems in these apartment complexes. So maybe that's the case. I guess I'll, you know, blame COVID for one more thing.
Ellie: Yeah, that's interesting that kind of different, I suppose, different things that could, could impact it.
But talking about these different clients and this, this might be almost like an unanswerable question, but how long typically do these cases? Take, do you stay with clients for a long period of time or are they fairly kind of fast moving?
Jon: Well on average, it's 18 months. So it's not a difficult question at all.
We, we track everything that, that comes in the office. And if somebody signs with us today, on average the, [00:10:00] the client would get a settlement check in about 18 months. The problem with that average is, you know, we have some cases that might take well, we've had cases take four or five plus years because it goes up to the court of appeals and it comes back down.
And then, you know, those are the really unusual cases. Certainly not, not typical cases, but if a case settles before a lawsuit it's usually before the 18 month period. So, you know nine months to 18. 18 months is pretty typical and then when a case goes into suit, then things can slow down because then you have this, this time period that's managed by a judge at a scheduling conference and a judge will bring all the attorneys together and say, okay, this is my calendar.
I'm going to now impose this on you. The attorney, you might have 45 days to answer and you might have an additional 90 days to get your witnesses. And then you might have another 90 days to get discovery or depositions or written [00:11:00] discovery completed. So you have all these things in line and they have to take place in a certain chronological order.
So that really makes the process a lot longer. But on average, from the beginning to the end for all of our cases, it's about 18 months.
Ellie: Okay, thank you. Yeah, that's I suppose. Yeah, that's a side of the specialism. I wasn't really aware of. Moving into a slightly different kind of focus point looking at your bios and your career.
I can see that you spent time teaching other attorneys about personal injury law and you also spent time, teaching at university. We always find it interesting with our guests when they work as lawyers and they have kind of other aspects You in their career. So did you always plan to incorporate teaching in your legal career?
And when did this teaching kind of start throughout your career?
Jon: My goodness. You know, that's a good question. Did I always plan it? I don't think I always planned it. Boy. So back when I was in law school, I was like a teacher's assistant for some [00:12:00] professors. So maybe that's where it started.
And I don't recall if I did it because I was paid or because I enjoyed it but eventually I enjoyed it and it was fun to be a 2L and help out the 1Ls and then certainly it was fun to be a 3L and help out the 2Ls and 1Ls and just have more responsibility. So I think that's probably where it started.
And then I, I was doing a lot of learning, you know you know, when you are in the, in your law career, they don't call it perfecting law. They call it practicing law. So there's a lot of practicing going on. So certainly the first few years I was doing a lot, a lot of practicing. And then finally I kind of got my legs under me and had more confidence.
And then I was more involved in what's called continuing legal education. So to be a practicing lawyer, a licensed lawyer in Wisconsin, you have to take [00:13:00] about 30 hours of credits every two years. And then some of those are ethics credits. So you have to go to class, you know, and have those credits. And you go usually you take classes that are within your, you know, your Area of specialty your area of expertise and even though we can't call ourselves experts, we can't call ourselves specialised, but anyway we kind of stay in that niche.
So I took a lot of classes that involve trial advocacy and personal injury. And then after you do that, then people start seeing you around like, Hey, you know, growth, do you want to start teaching? So then I started teaching at CLEs and I was a presenter. And it just kind of, went on from there. And then eventually I, I certainly enjoyed it.
And it was fun to you know, kind of tell others about certain cases that I had, because there are certain cases that are very unique and others want to, you know, if other people never had that kind of case, then they, want to hear from you. So then you are pretty much sought after. [00:14:00] So yeah, so then I did a lot of writing.
I did a lot of presenting, and then I did teach at a local university, just like a general legal class. I enjoyed it a lot. And then I had the blessing of children and then all that free time kind of goes away rightfully from your responsibilities to now their responsibilities, which become your responsibilities.
So I moved away from that. And now just recently we're getting, or I'm getting back into the presenting, I know I'm presenting at a expert class for non lawyers in about a month. And then I have some things next year that I'm presenting at. And then we do a lot of this where it's podcast interviews and different interviews with people.
And I think this has kind of taken the place, of a lot of the time I would take teaching people is just, you know, talking like this and kind of helping other people understand the, the law in, in Wisconsin. So it's [00:15:00] exciting. I enjoy it.
Ellie: Yeah. Thank you. I think it's really interesting to see how.
Like how much you were teaching and sort of what sort of teaching you're doing changed throughout your legal career. And yeah, I completely agree. I think, well, podcasts and for law students as well, how much they've grown kind of getting the chance to hear these one on one conversations and hear lawyers talk about their career is really helpful.
As much as hosting this, I also listened to a range of legal podcasts cause it's very helpful while studying the law. And yeah, so to focus in on your, again, your specialism with personal injury Looking at kind of the website and some of the things you do, I noticed there was some commentary on, social media posts when there's been a personal injury and I guess people use social media to talk about it so I thought this was really interesting and to kind of ask you about that, how can social media posts, like, affect a personal injury case and what precautions should people take?
Jon: Boy I have too many [00:16:00] examples to give you of how it can help and hurt. So let me tell you it can help my side of the case, help victims. And that we had somebody who was semi famous, in Wisconsin. This person worked for a local, the local professional basketball team, the Bucks, and this person was on their way to a Bucks game and was on social media driving and rear ended somebody else. And there was some argument that my client who was struck was driving erratically which was patently totally false. But we got a call from the insurance company for the at fault party saying, we have some questions, you know, we want to look into this.
Well, immediately after the crash our client had called me right away and said, Hey, I think the other person was on social media because they were talking on their phone, like, you know, like kind of we are now with their phone out almost like [00:17:00] FaceTime and was very involved in their phone after the crash.
So we pulled up at the time it was FaceTime and now probably Instagram would be, you know, or Snapchat or whatever it was, but at the time it was FaceTime or sorry, Facebook, Facebook. And we pulled up their Facebook account that was public and we could see the timing of it.
We knew when the police were called. We knew when the police arrived and within a few minutes of the police being called, you know, This particular person had posted online about they were excited to go to the Bucks game and work at the Bucks game and do X, Y, and Z. Well, that was perfect timing for us to show that they were literally posting as they were driving about,
their, their excitement that they were going to do X, Y, and Z in, in a matter of a, you know, half hour, hour. So it was pretty obvious that they were distracted, very distracted while they were driving on social media, driving [00:18:00] their car and didn't pay attention. And they probably didn't see what happened in front of them.
And that's why they didn't, know what happened and they thought somebody else must have swerved because I can't be responsible for the crash. So that was one way that we used social media as really a sword, you know and then the other way is using social media as a shield. And this is something I tell all my clients when they first come into us is, you know, stop posting online.
And certainly stop posting things that aren't true. You know, I, to this day, don't believe I'm very skeptical when it comes to social media posts. I don't think people look as good, are doing as much, are lifting as many weights. Are Eating as many hot dogs or whatever they're doing as they say they are on social media.
So we had a client who was allegedly doing work in their, their backyard and lifting a bunch of stuff. And there were pictures on social media of, [00:19:00] Hey, look what I did in my backyard. And it was. Logs and garbage and debris and this and that, and in essence, bragging about the work they did. Well, it was physically impossible for our client to have done that at this certain time period, because our client was involved in an accident, in a crash and it was on doctor's restriction.
So could not have done that. But. In my opinion, the timing of the post was the work was done before the crash and our client posted it after the crash. And it looked like it was done after the crash. So the defense attorney found the social media cause it was public. And then that was just a mess that we had to deal with because it's very difficult to prove a negative, you know, or to disprove a negative, I should say.
So. That, that's something where you're using social media as a shield and you're trying to figure out, okay, talk to clients early on, don't post, certainly don't brag, don't exaggerate on social media, everybody does [00:20:00] it. And it, it's it's difficult to put, you know, the genie back in the bottle or whatever, you know, the whatever the saying might be after.
This happens, you know, so those are two examples of we've used social media, and then we try to protect our clients from their use of social media.
Ellie: Yeah. That's so interesting. Like seeing how it was on both sides. Social media can be used because I mean, I'm definitely guilty of this as well because people just use it without thought now.
And I think you're absolutely right that there's a lot of exaggeration. And even though people are aware of it, I can see how it could really count against them in certain cases in the courts. So, yeah, that's really interesting perspective. And another interesting thing that I saw in the world of personal injury I believe it was like non COVID, but different vaccine injuries and how that's another area of personal injury. And I thought, I have a background in, biomedical science and different, yeah, vaccine things.
Jon: [00:21:00 So just, I think it's really interesting and you're hosting a law talks podcast. You should be working with us in our vaccine division. Wow. Okay.
Ellie: Yeah. I've had a bit of a bit of a change in studying plans and then future career. But yeah, I, I just find it really interesting to see how that kind of side of things that you can learn. I suppose the science side comes into the law.
So yeah, I wanted to ask you a little bit about those cases how they typically progress, what they usually involve.
Jon: Sure. So I didn't know anything about them until about four or five or so years agobefore COVID really. So in the 1980s in the United States well, in the 1970s, you know, there were vaccines that were promulgated andvaccine manufacturing companies were getting sued because there were side effects, you know, right.
And some of these vaccines are, I'll say experimental, were being used. And there was a concern over how do you balance, the societal necessity, you know, the desires to stop pandemics, to stop these widespread diseases and [00:22:00] problems on the same side protect manufacturers so they can.
Really conduct their proper research and development so they can help more people, you know, so we can help not only our part of the world, but the whole world. So in the 1980s, approximately, they came up with this, this program that about 75 cents of every vaccine. It goes into this fund and this fund then will be used to pay for the victims for their medical care, pain and suffering and for their attorney's fees.
So if you are a victim of a vaccine, then you don't have It's not going to cost you anything and you can get compensation for your injuries, but that's the sole remedy. You can't go after the manufacturer anymore. You can only go after this compensation program. So that's been going on for, you know, since about the 1980s.
And it's mostly dealing with,almost [00:23:00] exclusively dealing with vaccines that deal with children. So if a vaccine is allowed, is appropriate for kids, then those are Claims that that we can make for kids and adults and one of the most popular ones, ones that we see the most, just because it's the most popular vaccine is just the flu vaccine because more people get the flu vaccine.
So, or many, many people get the flu vaccine. So just by. Running the numbers, you can see that you're going to have more instances of a shoulder injury as the result of vaccine administration. So a cervical kind of injury, and sometimes it can be where the nurse, doctor, you know, tech injects too high, maybe too low something like that.
And they hit a nerve or a part of your body they shouldn't be hitting because they just were a little bit off. And then that causes pain problems like frozen shoulder kind of syndrome symptoms in your, in your arm. [00:24:00] And then if you do get treatment within a certain period of time after the, the administration after the vaccine and it lasts for about six months and you have medical care, then you meet the schedule, you know, you meet the elements necessary and you can make a claim.
And then it goes in front of them a, a magistrate judge in the U. S. Court of Federal Claims, and then the U. S. attorneys defend it. They send medical records and review the medical records through the Health and Human Services Department. And it's a very document heavy practice area.
And there's a lot of eyes, people looking at to see if it's legitimate. And after there are certain petitions are filed and the judge decides that this does meet the elements. Then within a matter of months the federal government will take money from the fund and pay the victim. And then after that, then attorneys we keep our time and then we'll get paid from the fund too.
[00:25:00] So the victim gets compensation. We get compensation for our time helping the victim. And that's kind of the whole process.
Ellie: Well, thank you. That's really interesting. I was completely unaware of the I suppose you said the 1980s when they created this kind of fund and how it's like a completely different process, I guess, to other personal injuries that you work at.
Jon: What's, you know, very unique is that there's one court in the United States, the U. S. Court of Federal Claims, that hears all these cases. You can. get a vaccine anywhere in the United States or at a U. S. base. So if you're in Germany at a U. S. base or you're wherever Puerto Rico, I mean, wherever you are and you get this vaccine you can have a claim with the U. S. Court of Federal Claims. And there's lots of clients of ours who have been overseas and, you know, who live overseas, but got a vaccine when they were in the military or at a, at a base. And you know, we, we really say it's an international practice because we certainly can help clients in every state in the United States.[00:26:00]
And depending on where they received the vaccine, any nation in the world.
Ellie: Wow. So would it be just talking about, I suppose, like I'm thinking size wise, would it be? possible that you'd have plasma injury attorneys that just specialize in kind of vaccine cases or? Oh sure.
Jon: yeah yeah yeah there there are there are not many of us that are licensed to right since relatively speaking there are not many of us that practice in this kind of area of law you know there's I don't even know how many hundreds of thousands of you know, attorneys and certainly tens of thousands of personal injury attorneys who just handle that niche of personal injury law.
And then of those that really practice and handle cases in the U. S. Court of Federal Claims there's even fewer, you know, I don't know if it's a thousand or so, but there are not many who, who on a regular basis I have their sole practice be in the US court of federal claims with the vaccine administration.
We, we [00:27:00] have staff a division of our law firm that that's all they do is vaccine administration cases.
Ellie: And kind of, I suppose, following on from that, if it's not super common, how did you get involved in, in these vaccine cases?
Jon: So a few years ago at the same time, we we're looking to expand.
We were we were lucky enough to purchase another law firm and that law firm had some attorneys and staff who just did this vaccine practice. You know, it just handled this. And that's when, you know, I was looking at their, at their books, looking at their numbers. And I was like, well, what is this, you know, area of revenue?
It's just this, is news to me. You know, what's this U. S. Court of Federal Claims? Why are we getting, or why are you getting checks from the Department of Justice? You know, what's happening or, you know, from the Department of the Treasury, sorry. And then I. Looked at it and then realized, oh, okay, this is a bigger deal than I thought it ever was.
And something that I didn't know existed up until that [00:28:00] point. So that's how I discovered it. Yeah, I, I honestly don't know if I ever even heard about it in the first 20 or so years of my life. Being a lawyer and you just never know, you know, there, there are things out there. The world is so vast.
There are things that I will never know exist, certainly or probably in the practice of law in, in Wisconsin, in the United States. But it's just fascinating to, you know, continue to learn about this. And that's why it's fun to be a lifelong learner, because you never know what's going to happen tomorrow.
There might be something, I don't know, maritime law or something we might get into. You just never know.
Ellie: Yeah, definitely. I think it's. I mean, I'm not even at the stage where I'm practicing law yet, but it's nice to hear about how during the career things that you cover can really change and that, that constant stage of learning.
It's a, it's a big appeal to, to that legal career side of things. And we spoke about in this answer, expansion. So then to take it back, could you tell us a little bit about the process of founding your own [00:29:00] firm? And kind of what that involved and any challenges and how you decided to do it essentially.
Jon: So in 2000, I became a lawyer and I worked for a very small firm and it was practice that, that the the main attorney had inherited his practice from his father and his father founded his firm.
And I had some time to talk to his dad who would, you know, pretty much retired and kind of got a sense of what that all meant. It was just fascinating, you know, to think of, him in the 19, what 60s and 70s you know, back when there weren't computers back when you're typing and there's, you know copy paper and things like that you know, how you would build a practice of law back then.
And then, you know, when, when my boss had taken over the practice, you know, he had to reinvent the practice and then, you know figure out what he was going to do, what his niche was going to be. So that was interesting for me. And they went through different practice areas while [00:30:00] I was there.
And then I then left there to work for just a firm that only did personal injury. And that firm was founded by three attorneys who left their firms and started their own practice. And, and that was about. So they started their practice in about 1999 and then they hired me.
So I was kind of involved in their journey as they were starting their practice and they purchased another firm a couple of years later. So I was involved to some extent in learning what that was about and how you expand a practice. And then eventually you know, about 2009 ish is when I started running the numbers and looking at, okay, this is what my personal income is.
This is how I've expanded my practice by my own personal practice. The way that I always looked at things is that I had my own law firm within their law firm. So I would look to get cases referred to me directly. Cause that's how. [00:31:00] I saw my own worth is that I could say, okay, Hey bosses, I brought in, you know, 17 clients, let's say they were referred, directed to me from my speaking engagements, from my friends, my blog, you know, whatever I had back then my own website.
So I could show, okay, this is my worth to the firm. This is my value. So I could then also, on a different kind of aspect or use of that information. I could use that as a valuing what my own individual practice would be worth. You know, how I could take that if I went on my own, what's my overhead going to be, you know, what's my income going to be, and could I maintain that?
This, this practice for hopefully the long term if I continue to get, you know, 17, 20, 30, 40 cases a year. And then what's the value of those cases? You know, what kind of attorney's fees can I get off those cases and crunch the numbers and figure out what would work for us and work for my family. [00:32:00] So that that's kind of how it worked out is I looked at this on a year by year basis, you know, do I have some numbers to look at?
Are they consistent? Are they replicable? You know, can I, is this a one off year or am I consistently growing my referral sources? You know, once I really felt more comfortable about that, then in about 2009, I decided I was going to make the jump and start my own practice. And then 2010, I headed off to my basement and that's where I had my computer in my basement looking at concrete.
You know wall the block wall and my dog was running overhead. My kids were running overhead and I'm trying to appear like a real lawyer, you know, on the phone, sending emails. HP printer with letterhead, trying to make it look official. And from there it continued to grow.
And luckily I had people who trusted me and referred me cases. And [00:33:00] I had some skill with advertising and, and marketing. And I had the ability to get my name out there. And then 30 cases turned into 60 cases. And then I had to hire staff and then I had to get a a law clerk and I had to have a bookkeeper.
And then it was a hundred cases and then it went up and up and up. And then, you know, we moved out of the basement, went and do office sharing. Area and then from there, you know, it just kind of snowballed into what we are now, where we have you know, about seven lawyers and about 30 or so staff.
And we're, you know, in a statewide practice and certainly with the vaccine stuff, you know, I'll say the international practice where we're helping people all over the world. So it's kind of fun. It's exciting. And that's been the journey. It wasn't overnight and there certainly were some very tough times, but it's been 14 years in the making.
Ellie: Wow. Thank you. It's, it's really interesting hearing that development [00:34:00] from the start to, to where it is now, as you say, with the international cases and the far larger practice. And I mean, maybe my perspective of. In england and the uk setting up your own firm is just from who i've spoken to but i don't think i've interviewed any founders who are based in the UK.
But I have met a few from the U S I don't know if that is just contacts that I've met or if that is reflected in the whole, the whole legal career, but maybe that's something I should, should look into But yeah, that's, that's really, really interesting. And do you feel that I know you said it didn't happen overnight, but that kind of development from when you went from like an office in your home to, getting plaques and all the various things, how sort of long did, did that take, would you say?
Jon: Boy not long. It was within the year that I had to hire a paralegal and the paralegal was part time initially. And then by the end of the first year, first calendar year, probably I had to have a bookkeeper help us out. And he was [00:35:00] part time. And then by the second calendar year, I had a law clerk that came on board.
And then you know, at that point it was, we were all in one room. So I had a friend of mine who let us borrow one of his empty rooms in his office space. And it was underground. It was in the basement of his office building or of the space that he had. He was underground. He had a window though.
Because he was lucky I did not have a window. So we were just at one point four people in one room that was, I don't know, 10 by 15 or something, and we had little Ikea type desks that were just, you know, very efficient small desks and yeah, it was it was. Tight and cozy. But we, we made it work and then probably within probably the second calendar year is when we started [00:36:00] hiring additional people and additional paralegals and then an additional attorney.
And then by the third calendar year, we had to go into our own bigger office space and we were there for. About five years until 2017. Yeah, so I think that that would probably make sense time wise. And then 2017, we moved into our own building. We had to move into an entire building and we're there until we kind of grew out of that space.
And then we had to go into a second building in about 2020, approximately. And that's kind of where we are right now. And then last year we kicked out some of the, the tenants in the new building because we were growing. And now we're trying to figure out construction. We're getting quotes as we speak here for the space, because we need to find additional ways or ways to use the space to put additional seats and [00:37:00] additional offices in.
So cubicles or what have you. So it's just the constant growth, which is great. Considering that's my name. Good stuff.
Ellie: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well, that sounds, sounds fantastic. I mean, I've obviously not founded my own firm, but it feels like a year. That's such a fast kind of initial growth that has continued, which is, yeah, really interesting to hear.
And I suppose from your, then from your experience as a founder and, and all your work in, in this specialism in the law and I, okay. Also kind of to, to round off the interview, what qualities do you think are essential for someone both to, I suppose, successfully run their own personal injury law firm, but also just to specialize in personal injury and flourish in the field a lot of our listeners are kind of, I think the bulk of them range from 18 to 25. So people who either are studying law or usually in the UK, you finish studying and you've sort of started working.
And if they're interested in getting involved in personal injury and eventually Making it their full specialism, the kind of qualities and skills [00:38:00] that they should focus on.
Jon: So going back to, I think one of the things I said earlier is being a lifelong learner and really being okay with, asking people for help, you know, and understanding that older attorneys most of us or them, I'm not old.
So most of them, those older people, they enjoy giving advice. I think that's kind of the stereotypical old timer where, you know, they had to sit down and, you know, talk your ear off for a couple hours. But I think that that's something that you have to understand. You're not alone. People have been there and done that.
And you have to be okay, your ego has to be okay to ask advice of others. Number one, number two continue to, to understand that you're never gonna,you're never going to know it all. The 80 20 rule, you have to kind of abide by that, that things are never going to be perfect.
You know, you can, if you can get 80 percent of the work [00:39:00] in 80 percent of the work done Be willing to do your best and know that that's good enough and then be willing to ask others for help.
Nowadays I guess, am, lucky in that the way that I grew my practice I was somewhat on the cutting edge with you know, the blog that I had, the website that I had you know, the, the videos, YouTube channel, all that kind of stuff throughout the years. And because I am a lifelong learner.
I like figuring out different things. Every time something else comes up, I'm, I'm, I'm interested in it. It's probably also a bad thing cause I get down rabbit holes with, you know what might be the newest SEO tactic, for example. But understanding that going forward, you know, if you have, if it's TikTok, if it's Snapchat, if, I mean, I, I don't know how to how currently you'd be able to run a personal injury practice from, Cases that you derive from Snapchat, but maybe there's a way somebody will figure it out or, [00:40:00] you know, TikTok or things like that, where you're showing your expertise and maybe that's how you get your clients.
But those are things that you have to be willing to understand what the latest and greatest thing is and kind of dive in and again, realize you might fail 20 percent of the time. And if you do, that's okay. You know, you just have to get back up the next day and figure out, okay, what did I learn from that failure?
And now how can I move forward and hopefully make a better decision next time and continue to improve?
Ellie: Thank you. I think that's, that's really interesting. And seeing, particularly when you're talking about like, Same with things that are going to help you, I suppose, stand out and trying to discover these new ways, talking about TikTok and, and Snapchat.
That's something that, I mean, obviously as a podcast we try and use, but when you see, when I see kind of legal things on TikTok, it still feels quite new, but it does feel effective because once you've seen it, when you're used to just scrolling through something, it kind of grabs your attention.
So, yeah, I agree. I think that could [00:41:00] definitely be something that as more and more. People tap into in the future could be a really popular and effective marketing strategy.
Jon: Hopefully we'll see. It's a, you just never know. I mean, you don't know what's going to happen with TikTok here in the U S if it's going to stick around or not.
So then what's your backup? And, and that's kind of the, you know, the, the fascinating thing is then where, how do you diversify? How do you, how do you put more of your videos on Insta or what do you do? I guess I'm not, I'm not quite sure. I, I don't know the answers. All I know is that they have to be ready to pivot pretty quick because it's become that crazy world where you need instant gratification and things can change instantly.
Just look at what this past, you know, recent news about, you know, X being banned in certain countries and, you know, things over that, that you just never know what's going to happen. Somebody could say something in the next week and social media channels could be shut down. You know, so [00:42:00] long story short, you just gotta get ready for the next thing and just be ready to, to pivot and, and, and move on and not get worn down, be an optimist. It, it'll be okay. Just keep on pushing through.
Ellie: Definitely. Thank you very much. And thank you so much for, for coming on Law Talks.
Jon: Well, thank you. It was nice to talk to you. You know, hopefully I, was able to give some some knowledge to your listeners and some insight into the personal injury world here in Wisconsin.
And if anybody has any questions, you know, you can check out our website or if you want to you know, get in touch with me. All my contact information is online. I'd be happy to chat with anybody. If you want to ask about, you know, how I did things or how I can help, I'll be around.
Ellie: Definitely. And I'll make sure to include the website and everything in the show notes.
So any listeners can refer to that.
Jon: Awesome. [00:43:00]
Comments