Season 5, Episode 5: Campaigning for Better Paternity Leave with Alex Lloyd Hunter: The Dad Shift

Ellie: [00:00:00] Thank you for joining us today on Law Talks. And to start off the interview, please could you introduce yourself?

Alex: My pleasure. I am Alex Lloyd Hunter. I'm one of the co-founders of the Dad Shift, which is a new campaign bringing together men, dads, and co-parents to campaign for better paternity leave in the UK.

Ellie: Thank you very much. And so really excited to talk about the Dad Shift. Could you kind of explain to us a little bit more, what this campaign is and what the central aim is of the campaign? 

Alex: Sure. So we are campaigning for a new improved paternity leave policy in the UK. The reason for that is at the moment, the UK statute paternity leave is the worst in Europe.

New fathers and other co-parents, for example, non birthing mums in same tech relationships who also get paternity leave, we get just two weeks off after the birth of a child paid at less than half the minimum wage, which is well, well below the European average and well below what other countries who are doing much better.

And that creates tons of problems for everyone in the family. It's bad [00:02:00] for kids, it's bad for mums, and it's bad for dads, but it's also bad for society as a whole. We are calling on the government who promised to review parental leave within their first 12 months in office to bring in a new offer that pays better, that gives dads enough time off to bond with their kids and properly support their partners after birth, and crucially takes us closer towards equality between parents.

Ellie: Thank you. That was really, really clear. And kind of from your previous answer, you mentioned that the Dad Shift campaign is. Relatively recent, so I'm curious how it was formed and whether there was a particular like trigger change or if it's just something that, has been kind of building for a while.

Alex: Yeah, it's, I think there's a moment where basically you've got a new generation of parents coming through who expect something different to what they are finding when they become parents. And you are finding mums who have careers, who have lives outside of [00:03:00] childcare, suddenly becoming mothers, and finding within the system, it's really hard for them to share that equally with their partner.

At the same time, you have dads who want to be a bigger part of their kids' lives. In fact, we've done polling recently that showed 90% of dads saying that they think these days fathers want to be a bigger part of their kids' lives. They are finding themselves shut out of playing that role. They want to be there for their kids, they want to be there for their parents, but it's really difficult because of social barriers, but also because of structural barriers like poor paternity leave.

So I think there's a bunch of, you know, I'm in, I'm 35, I've got a kid who's nearly son who's nearly three. And I think there are a lot of us coming through who recognise what's happening now is not right. And from my personal perspective, you know, the reason I got interest in this area is I have a son.

My wife and I have always been really intentional about doing everything as equally as possible, both so that she can carry on in her career, but also so that I get, as I see it, the kind of joy of being a big part of my son's life. He gets that [00:04:00] with me, he gets to bond with me, and that's something that I didn't have really with my dad, like a lot of men of his generation.

See, there was no paternity leave then. My older brother was born at nine o'clock on a Sunday night. He was back at work 12 hours later, 9:00 AM Monday. He worked really long hours, so we didn't really see him five days a week. And so as a result, we never really formed a close bond. And we are much closer now, you know, as adults.

And he's a very, to my surprise, in some ways, a very soppy, devoted grandparent. And through that we started to talk about the fact that he feels like he misses out. He missed out on that when I was younger and I feel like I missed out on that. And too often I think that's, that's happening where you men don't get that bond with their kids and they end up not growing up, not really knowing their kids and they and the child miss out on that.

So that, that's what brought me to this alongside the problems that I hear about that this creates from others. You know, mothers feeling like they're shut out of their careers and don't really have a choice but to take on the role of primary caregiver, whether or not they want that. And yeah, so there are a bunch of us basically feeling the same [00:05:00] things as others who are really worried about the rise of a kind of backlash against feminism.

You see it in people like Andrew Tate. We've just seen in the the US election for the first time in forever, Trump won a majority of young men under the age of 30, and we are really worried about, as the role of men, traditional role of men has changed as over the last few decades. We're really worried about the vacuum that's created there and we want to try and fill that with a more positive idea of what masculinity means.

And we think fatherhood is a big part of that. 

Ellie: Thank you. I can see there's, there's a real range of focuses and how it can have a really positive impact on not just kind of one focus, but so many different things. Uh, and yeah, I think particularly hearing about the US election is incredibly topical right now in that relation.

And I think such a core part of this and a lot of our listeners to kind of give that context are aspiring lawyers hopefully would be listening to this episode and potentially finding an aspect of the law [00:06:00] that they will be interested to try and change and develop. So could you please explain to our listeners sort of the current paternity leave situation? Maybe why, it's at two weeks?

Alex: So yes, it's two weeks paid 184 pounds a week, which is less than half a minimum wage. It's below the, the line for poverty level income. Which puts us right at the bottom of the table in Europe. On maternity pay side, mothers get six weeks at 90%, followed by the rest of the year at that same statutory maternity level, uh, statutory pay level.

So actually it's a really long maternity leave, but pay wise, it's again near the bottom in Europe. So we we're underperforming on parental leave really across the board, paternity and maternity pay. Historically, paternity pay was introduced in 2003, uh, or 2001, early two thousands. And hasn't really been improved since.

So before then, it wasn't paternity leave, that's when the two weeks were introduced and shared parental leave was introduced almost exactly 10 years [00:07:00] ago. And so shared parental leave allows fathers to take some of the, uh, mother's leave and pay it again at that statutory level. That was meant to be a step towards some of the change that we talked about improving equality between parents, but it just really hasn't worked at all.

The take up is incredibly low. It's less than 5%, and that's because it's just poorly paid and hardly anyone can afford to take it. People don't want to make to force their partner to sacrifice their leave, which is really important as well in order to get decent, leave themselves. It's incredibly complicated.

Like I've heard of people literally paying companies to do the administration for them because it's so complicated to apply for. And then also lots of people aren't eligible, so it's hard to know exactly why we're so far behind. One thing that is a has been a big problem is the last 14 years we've had a government that has not seen this as a priority and has perhaps not shared our [00:08:00] values around it.

One of the big problems with parental leave, uh, with paternity leave at the moment is because it's so poorly paid, loads of people can't afford to take it. Like a third of dads just take no leave at all because they, it costs about a grand in lost earnings for someone on the average salary to take two weeks of paternity leave.

And most people just can't afford that. And so when the last government was confronted with this, they did a review and said, okay, rather than in changing the level of pay, what we're gonna do is split it so that you can take one week. At the beginning and then take one week later on if you'd like to so that you can save up in between.

And like that was their proposed solution, which is, I mean, just doesn't work, just doesn't help. So that's, that's I think a big part of why we've ended up falling so far behind the rest of Europe on this. And you can pair at the top of the, the table, you have Sweden who offer 90 days ringfence for each parent paid at 80% of salary, and then another 300 days that they can share between them as they see fit.

In [00:09:00] Spain, they've been improving their paternity leave over the last, and parental leave, over the last five years, so that now both parents get 16 weeks paid at a hundred percent and you go on down other countries everywhere you look have better as systems than us, but we are optimistic that there is a really good opportunity over the next year or so to change this.

The new government, we believe, does share our values on this more. They have committed to reviewing parental leave in their first year, and you remember that during the election. Kier Starmer himself was attacked for saying he spent, he reserved Friday nights spend with his family and his opponent said he, you know, he's a part-time prime minister.

And he stood up for it. He said, no, this, I'm not gonna back down on this. This is right. And so we we're hopeful that we've got someone in charge who understands the importance of being present as a father, and will take action to help other dads do the same thing. 

Ellie: Thank you. Yeah, I actually, I really clearly remember that in the election .

I mean, I guess I also think it showed a real generational divide because I felt like a lot of, [00:10:00] as you said, like the new generation of parents and younger people hearing that, would've thought that that was, I mean, first of all, a completely acceptable thing to say shows a kind of, prioritising family and the real importance. So I, I thought the kind of commentary around that was really at times shocking and interesting and could have, if I could just pick up into one particular thing that you said that I think I'm unaware of. Was that kind of the difficulty in the administrative side?

I sort of, I guess I assumed, I guess I know you have to apply for the, I, I was thinking of it almost in some way, a parallel to like sick leave and having certain days off or holiday where you apply for holiday. I don't know if you could explain why it's sort of different and is it different between paternity and maternity leave, like the complexity around administration. 

Alex: Applying for paternity or maternity leave itself is relatively straightforward. You need to get a form filled in, hand that into your employer, and then the employer will handle it. One of the reasons, as I understand it, that shared parental leave is so much more complicated is, is the two employers have to communicate between each other.

Because you are transferring [00:11:00] leave from the mother to the other parents. And as far as, that's one of the complexities, but it seems like it's a system that's just been designed poorly and it's just wildly complicated. And it's not clear whether you are eligible for a lot of people. A lot of people don't know that they're eligible and the process you have to go through is really difficult.

So that's one barrier. But really the, the pay is the main barrier and that's why it's so important that we don't get, we don't just get a new paternity policy that gives you a really long time because that would be great for wealthier families who can afford to save up and take that time, but it will still shut out the vast majority of parents and they'll, we end up with widening two tier inequality.

Ellie: Yeah, definitely. I can still see there's almost kind of two separate real focuses, so the, the length and the time two weeks feels incredibly short. And then the pay, which yeah, definitely also then makes it such an economic barrier and because I think this is something, maternity and paternity leave is something [00:12:00] I've been interested in a while and I remember discussions how also if you have, if you're a company, and I suppose this is maybe not just statutory, but if you have an attractive kind of maternity and paternity leave options, it actually, it's this idea that, I suppose this is more focus maybe on maternity, but it encourages people to want to come, like come back to work after the maternity leave and feel that they're supported in their work environment, and in their kind of family choices. So yeah, I guess I'm just agreeing with you! 

Alex: Yeah, but I think that's an important point, which is you more and more you're seeing big companies bringing in enhanced paternity policies. Some of them, you know, BT for example, six months full pay for both parents and then up to a year for both parents at a lower level of pay.

So it's fully equal and it's very generous and there are tons of other companies you're seeing doing the same thing. They're doing that for, because they know it's good for the business. They know it's good for retaining and attracting staff, [00:13:00] but they also know that it's good for staff morale. And it's good for productivity.

And I think this is one of the, the sort of false economies around sending people back to work after two weeks, once you've had a child, you're not sleeping. Your world's being contained completely upside down. You're just trying to work out how to be a parent, how to support your partner. If your partner's had a cesarean, it might be like really challenging for them to be recovering, and then you'll plop back at your desk and said, right, you're a hundred percent productive now.

Right? Go and go and do this important business, critical work, and you're not, I remember going, coming back from paternity leave, I was lucky I had six weeks, you know, I love more, but I, I had six weeks and I was in a meeting doing a presentation or something, or making a point. And I remember my brain just stopped producing words and I just like mid-sentence and I was so tired and I just stopped talking at mid-sentence and everyone was there on the call being like, you okay?

And, and so it took me a few, a good few seconds to like recapture my train of thought. And, and that was [00:14:00] after six weeks. I said, mean after two weeks. And you know, if you are someone in a job, you're doing manual work or you're a driver or something like it's genuinely, potentially unsafe. And so companies know this.

They know that it's not great to get employees back at their desk. They know that it's can be really bad for people's mental health. There's lots of evidence of people going back, feeling not ready to go back and their mental health really suffering. So that's why companies are doing this. But again, we, we can't have a situation where it's left up to companies to do it because so many companies can't afford to do it.

Smaller companies in particular. And what you'll end up is this widening gap, which we're already seeing. Between wealthier companies with typically wealthier employees who are getting a a good deal and people working for smaller companies on often lower salaries who just can't afford to take anything and it's a, it becomes a massive gap and a massive inequality.

Ellie: Thank you. And I guess my follow up question to that would be, you've talked about Sweden and then how, I think it [00:15:00] was Spain, you said has been improving. Does the Dad Shift have, do you have a clear aim of where you would like to like push maternity, statutory, statutory leave to, or is the kind of aim, general improvement, are you fixing on a particular like current country situation? Just out of curiosity.

Alex: So we're at the moment campaigning around the kind of principles that we wanna see, so the substantial amount of time, but it's affordable and, but it supports equality between genders so people can choose their own roles as parents and not have them dictated. Whereas we get closer to the review, there are tons of really great organisations in our space doing the policy work, which they're better equipped to do, and we'll, we'll throw our weight behind, um, behind that.

But yeah, we recognise that somewhere like Sweden, it's got incredible paternity leave. They've been building that up over, you know, decades at this point. We're not gonna get a Swedish model tomorrow that's, that's too big a leap. What we need is something that achieves the same kind of outcomes that is.[00:16:00] 

Something we can do as a country now, given our financial situation and our other kind of constraints that works for Britain, but like we want something ambitious. You know, we want something bold. We wanna make a meaningful step forward. Here we are so far behind that we can't really afford to just take tiny needle steps and wait another 20 years to do it.

You know, we, we want to make this an important moment. 

Ellie: Yeah, definitely. And I think, as you said, the last change was over 10 years ago. So definitely. 

Alex: 20. Yeah. 

Ellie: Yeah. 20 years ago. Sorry. Yes. 

Alex: Yeah. Shared parental leave 10 years ago. Exactly. But the actual improvement to paternity leave 20 years.

Ellie: Yeah. To focus slightly to, to change the, the order of topics, but you talked about the slight difference between the previous government and their kind of absolute lack of focus on this area. How has potentially your campaign impacted by the changing government? I know you spoke about, I guess just like general appreciation for what you are putting across, but you talked about kind of in the next year [00:17:00] your optimism and what you're aiming for.

Alex: Yeah, so I think there's two, two crucial points around this. One is that the commit commitment to the plan, parental leave review, which gives us a moment where we, we hope paternity leave will change. So that gives us something really clear to focus on. And the government in the recent employment rights bill, committed, included in the bill making paternity leave at day one. Right. So at the moment, you have to be in a job. If you basically start a new job after your partner's become pregnant, more or less, you're not entitled to paternity leave. They've changed that. So that becomes a day one. Right.

You're not entitled to the pay on day one still, but it's a very small step. But for us, shows positive intent around improving this and they've publicly acknowledged that the parental leave system at the moment doesn't work for parents. So that gives us a, I think, a statement of intent and a moment to aim for, which is crucial.

The second thing is that I think part of the reason we've got so much support amongst MPs at the moment in labor, about 40 mps are backing their campaign, is [00:18:00] we've got this new intake of MPs who are, many of them parents of relatively young kids themselves, and they, they, they get this, they're part of that new generation that I'm talking about.

They've seen this play out in their own lives and the lives of their friends, and also a lot of them are in constituencies that labour's just one, and they speak to fathers in those constituencies, you know, many of them from kind of less affluent backgrounds, and they see how difficult, this, how this contributes to, to a lot of financial difficulty for people around when their kids are born.

It's something like over 50% of families who do take paternity leave, end up in financial difficulty afterwards. And so people are left with this choice of, do I give up on these kind of precious days with my new family, Which are moments I never get back. Memories I never get back, and drive us into financial hardship, or do I go back to work?

I mean, and that's just a ridiculous choice that people have to be making. So I think those are two big, big things that have changed politically. I mean, the final [00:19:00] thing that's worth mentioning, the flip side of what I was saying earlier about Starmer being attacked in the election for wanting to spend time with his kids.

We saw a couple of weeks ago ahead of, Kemi Badenoch winning the Tory leadership, a conservative MP saying she shouldn't be leader of your opposition because she'll be spending all her time with her kids and you can't spend all your time with your family and be a leader of the opposition. And I think that shows the flip side to the problem.

Like on the one hand, you're having men being told that they shouldn't be spending more time with their kids. And the other hand you're saying to women, well, you can't be in a career because you should be, because you will be spending more time with your kids. You know, women can't, focus on their career because they're too family focused.

And, and both those things are, are wrong, but represent some of the, the social barriers that we need to overcome. 

Ellie: Yeah. Thank you. And I can see it's, it's not just the idea of policy and I, I know you said principles, but also that's this kind of social stigma that you'd hope would be something of the past is still very much, I mean, it's [00:20:00] demonstrated, I guess in, uh, the like political climate during the different campaigns. Mm-hmm. Thank you. And one thing that I really wanted to focus on, because something that really brought, like the Dads Shift in to, well, to my focus actually was the campaign where like baby slings were tied to, to statues around the key. First of all, I thought this was just like fantastic imagery and really powerful.

It's, it sent the message really clearly. So I guess I just wanted to ask the kind of like decision basis around this campaign, how it was decided. Why it was decided at a particular time and kind of what was the, the overall aim? 

Alex: So we, we wanted to make the point that essentially men are often defined by their job in society.

You know, that that is what you look at. Society sees a man and says this is how he contributes, it's what he does. And women, conversely, are primarily defined for their family and their relationships. They're kind of constantly asked about that, whereas men very rarely are. And so we wanted to make the point in a way that was kind of [00:21:00] hopefully fun and lighthearted.

That there are multiple ways of seeing a man. You've got your professional footballer scoring a goal, but he's got a baby stuck to his chest and he's also a dad or he's a banker on a call making a sale. He's also a dad. And it just, we're trying to make the point that we just need a little bit more nuance about how we talk about men and what male identity is, and that the value of a man can play as a father in society is as important as the role he can play in his career.

And I think people, resonated with the kind of humor of it and the, the stories, implicit stories behind the pictures. My favorite one is, is actually this guy hailing a taxi and you kind of, you put a sling on him and suddenly he's, he's this kind of desperate dad who's late for nursery, like desperately trying to get to work on time.

Yeah. Um, and I think also there's a, you know, and this is part of the problem we're trying to fight against. There's a novelty to seeing men out in public saying, oh, I'd like to be a bigger part of my kids' life. Fancy that. Mm-hmm. We are also really [00:22:00] fortunate to have been building on the work that tons of really good organisations have been doing in this space already.

And for example, people like the Firewood Institute or Pregnant then Screwed, who've been running a brilliant campaign, uh, mobilising mothers to campaign for better paternity leave. And they actually did their own sling stunt, um, last year with, um, some statues on a beach. Um, so yeah, we're, we're coming into a space that others have, have rolled the ground for.

We are hoping that the value we can bring is by getting more men involved in this, we are sort of completing the puzzle we've got, if you've got mothers calling for this, you've also got fathers. Then it makes it a much more compelling case overall. 

Ellie: Yeah, definitely kind of having both, both sides focusing on an issue that is beneficial to to all, which I think has come across really clearly in the interview.

And yeah, no, I definitely, for all the organisations using it, I just think it's one of those ones that's really eye catching and just, yeah, it kind of stays in the memory. I think also touching on the idea of the novelty of it. I agree. I remember seeing, I [00:23:00] think it was Daniel, Daniel Radcliffe, he was like photographed in the media and he was carrying his new baby in like a baby sling and it was very sweet photo.

But a lot of the kind of commentary around it and in the article was if this was kind of shocking and like a unusual for a, for a father to do, which it felt dated, but I guess it does show why this has feels unusual to people. 

Alex: Yes. Yeah. I mean, the one I remember was, it was a few years ago now, I think it was 2018, but Daniel Craig was photographed carrying his child in a baby carrier and Piers Morgan tweeted, oh, you know, even James Bond is, whatever, a wimp now, or something like that.

And I said, so the thing, like, I'll take my cues of masculinity from James Bond and not Piers Morgan, you know, but yeah, you're right. It's still, it's still sort of not normalised in some communities and in other countries. It really is, you know, speaking to some, some folks from Sweden recently, and it's the opposite where actually they said, you know, if a father didn't take the [00:24:00] paternity leave offered and wasn't being supported, that would be really, really frowned upon.

Whereas it's almost, you know, our norm here is to assume that if dad, a dad is an active involved father, they're kind of unusual. They their praise for it rather than what the point we're trying to make is like see if that's something that most people want. There, there are just barriers in place that stop people doing it, and we just want to remove those barriers and normalize it and to, for society and our political systems to catch up with the change in attitudes that has already come through with the generation of fathers coming, coming into parenthood now.

Ellie: Yep. Definitely. Thank you. And just to, sorry this is a slight jump back, but it was just something that's been, as we've been discussing it and talking about, these important social changes as well and how the like policies should reflect that in society. To kind of cast back to the start of the interview, when you mentioned the, the introduction of the, you originally a week mm-hmm.

And then you get a week mm-hmm. Later. I just wondered why I, I suppose that you, you [00:25:00] did talk a little bit about that, it was like an economic thing, but what was the idea around this and, and did the second, like, is there limitations when the second week can come in? Like, I guess I just can't see the logic behind this policy or anything?

Alex: No. I mean, I, I don't think you're alone in, in that, the rationale as I understand it was if it's, if it's too expensive for you to take two weeks in one go, take one, save up for a few months and then take the other, which is, yeah. It, it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. And, and also, you know, you need two weeks is not enough right at the beginning. Let alone saying, well, you can take one and another one later. You know, there is a lot of good evidence that what really moves the ball up the court in terms of improving gender equality and longer term fathers becoming more involved in childcare longer term, is if you can have a period of leave where fathers are looking after their child on their own after the mother has gone back to work.

So that is something we would love to have [00:26:00] built into policies going forward. But at the same, you, you just need a bit of time right at the beginning. Like, what if your partner has had a C-section. And, some people are told it'll take you six weeks to recover. You can't lift your child if you haven't, you know, if your, if your recovery is gonna work you, you literally cannot pick up your child.

So what do you do if your partner's back at work after two weeks? You don't have family around. And we just had hundred like hundreds of people, thousands of people actually taking our survey and sharing their stories. And time and time again, you hear back from mothers who say, I was left alone, and I really struggled and you hear from pharmacies that I went back and I, I really struggled and like my mental health suffered.

So yeah, you need that time at the beginning and just, it needs to be properly paid so everyone can take it and just splitting in two is, woeful. 

Ellie: Definitely. And yeah, particularly relating to the pay at a time when I think anyone would expect that kind of the average family home is gonna get a lot more expensive.

You've got a new member to the family [00:27:00] suddenly living on, on a super restricted, as you said below what's needed. 

Alex: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, if you think, because if anyone's tried to buy pram, they're incredibly expensive. You know, you, you most prams, many prams cost more than you would be paid for your entire paternity. And that's just a pram.

And there's all the other costs that you need to buy and food for, for babies or formula if you are, if you're not breastfeeding. And yeah, you're right, it's a really expensive time. And at the same time, we're essentially slashing family incomes, not just from poor maternity pay, but for the for fathers or other co-parents, poor paternity pay. And you know, most people can't afford to lose that grand or so in their first two weeks at a really expensive time. 

Ellie: Thank you. I think that it's really clearly illustrated why this issue is so important and hopefully areas of of change that we might, we might be seeing. Like relatively soon.

Could you then tell our listeners sort of how people can get involved with the Dads Shift?

Alex: Yes.

Ellie: Whether they, yeah, whether they're fathers or they want to get involved or they're not parents at all. 

Alex: [00:28:00] Yeah. So you don't, you don't have to be a a dad to get involved. If you are a parent, we'd love you to be involved.

If you're not a parent, we'd love to get involved if you just care about this. So you can go to our website at dadshift.org.uk. There'll be a button at the top where you can add your name for better paternity leave. That's the place to start, and then we'll get in touch with various different campaign actions you can be taking to help us get the best possible paternity leave policy in an upcoming review.

If you're on social media, we're also on Instagram, in particular @DadShiftUK. So follow us there. And the more you can be sharing and liking and talking about this, the more we can build that public groundswell of support that MPs and the press will tap into. And we'll help them go to the leadership and say, look, this is something that's got a lot of support.

We need to, you know, we've got the space here to do something bold.

Ellie: Perfect. Thank you very much and thank you for coming on Law Talks. It's been a really interesting interview. 

Alex: Yeah, my [00:29:00] pleasure.