Season 4, Episode 3: Emily Cox: Diversity, Equity and Inclusion: is the legal profession doing enough?

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Ellie: In this episode of Law Talks, I am joined by Emily Cox. Emily is an embedded employment associate at Womble Bond Dickinson. Emily discusses her role as a legal technical specialist and provides insightful advice to neurodivergent individuals on working in the legal sector. Thank you for joining us today.

And to start us off, please, could you tell us about your legal career to date?

Emily Cox: Hi Ellie, I'm Emily Cox and I am an associate at Womble Bond Dickinson. My office is based in Plymouth and I've had a bit of a wiggly line when it comes to careers. So if I go back to when I was in high school I've a socially mobile background.

So my parents were farmers and police officers in their day. And my mum basically left the [00:01:00] police force to look after my sister and myself. GCSEs, I did really well in, love my GCSEs. Got to A levels and my grades started going a little bit wonky. But if I know what I know now, which I will disclose a bit later, I can understand why they went a bit wonky.

Got to university and because I was from a farming community, I'd grown up in a very small, not even really a hamlet, a very rural location in Wales. I hadn't really seen the world at all, was a bit blown away by university and my society is a little bit too hard. So my law degree, to be honest, was a bit of a disaster.

I didn't do very well. I was exceptionally upset about that because I, at that point, I knew I wanted to become a lawyer because I'd previously started off in a languages degree and transferred over to a two-year law program at Bangor University. So very, very upset about that. [00:02:00] I knew I had the intellect to be a lawyer.

So luckily the university did support me and I did a master's in law and criminology. Did really well at that. So I was like, That's good. And then it was looking at, right, I've not actually never had an office job in my whole life. So all my jobs when I was younger were throwery picking, sheep shearing, literally working on farms, working in cafes, working in pubs.

I was a bit like, Oh, I don't even know if I like being in an office. I started off as a legal administrative assistant and receptionist at a small high-street firm. And that was a bit of a wake-up call as to whether or not I liked being in the office if I wanted to do law. So I then progressed to being a paralegal in the family department, which I really enjoyed.

And that's when it sort of hits like, yeah, I want to be a [00:03:00] lawyer essentially and very lucky that I could get a training contract at this law firm. So I did a reduced training contract because I had been paralegaling for quite a few years and I ended up qualifying in employment and civil litigation.

So kind of a combination of the two, because I just enjoyed doing the two. After that, I've sort of moved about different firms. I started off doing with the, doing civil litigation and employment and decided that I loved employment way too much because it's constantly changing, there are always updates in case law.

It's a real people-centric area of law, which I love. So I decided just to fully go into employment and make employment my speciality. So now I've been at WBD for, gosh, five, about five years now. And so I have gone full circle. I have done payment work and now I am [00:04:00] respondent work essentially, but very, very, very different at WBD because I sit within the WBD advanced team in our legal solution centre in Plymouth.

And even though I am an employment associate at WBD, I do have a variety of hats that I have to wear in the WBD advanced team, just because I have lots of things to do, which I'm not necessarily lawyer-centric, but I still need to have the lawyer hats to understand risk, the law on various projects that we work on.

So for example, I am a lawyer. When I first started off my career at WBD, I was still running Employment Tribunal case files. That slowly dropped off because I got busier and busier in other project work. I'm also a manager and supervisor of a paralegal team [00:05:00] at WBD Advanced. So I think we've got about 20 paralegals specifically in my team and we handle Volume projects, and they could cover anything from litigation disclosure, intellectual property, building bundles, data subject access requests.

So everything under the sun, essentially. And my role is being the lawyer there. So queries can be escalated to make their legal queries on say, privilege or data protection, you know, not sure if something can be disclosed. So I'm there for that, but also I am sort of like a manager hat as well. So looking at paralegals' performance, training my team so they could do their job to the best of their ability.

And then also a bit of a knowledge management role that, because again, I have to train them. So we make sure that we have our own sort of knowledge management system. So we've always got training there. So when we're bringing in paralegal apprentices or our own solicitor apprentices, we have all the documents [00:06:00] there to help train them.

And then alongside that is the sort of project management, change management role. So any sort of project that Carolee was working on, I would be running some project management type work behind the scenes alongside our own actual project managers, which is quite unique for law firms. But it's great because at the end of the day, businesses and clients, don't just want lawyers who do black letter law now.

We need to understand the client's business and essentially look out for efficiencies for them in the business, cost-effectiveness. So I have to be thinking about costs quite a lot and time efficiency. So that sort of falls under that project management role. And then the really fun stuff, which is the legal technology, which I love.

And so part of my role is sort of testing out technology with our legal tech team that we have at WBD and looking at how it can [00:07:00] enhance our paralegals' work or that making that sort of more time effective or cost-effective, but also making it making our lawyers' jobs a lot easier. So looking at document automation, looking at disclosure disclosure systems.

Because I mean, when I was a paralegal, if I had to redact for a DSAR, I had to print off all the paperwork and go over it with a black pen and ruler, whereas now the paralegal team have access to fantastic software, which they could do it at the click of a button. So yes, the legal technology side is great because you can build case management systems, run projects off software just makes us a lot quicker doing the work and also actually helps with risk management as well, which we've always got to focus on as well as we are regulated by the SRA. And then on top of that, I am neurodivergent I'm not diagnosed, I'm sat on a very long waiting list. But that led [00:08:00] to me, in COVID lockdown.

When you're sort of on your own in a room and it was looking at, hang on a second, I was just talking to people and going, my behaviours aren't sort of normal, sort of telling people that I've got an own inner monologue going on. So whilst I'm talking to you now, Ellie, I've currently got another monologue going on in my head.

And it was also, you know, we've got TikTok as well, which you always have to take with a pinch of salt, but it was just looking at other people's experiences and that led me talking to my GP. My symptoms essentially they said, do you really need to go and get diagnosed because you pretty much fall within neurodivergent.

So I am going to get diagnosed. I think it is important. It makes me look back on my career where I found things difficult. So I've always found maths exceptionally difficult for me. Numbers jump all over the place. They don't really follow any patterns, [00:09:00] but on the flip side, I always do everything under pressure.

I'm one of those, I, I work really well in pressure, having very urgent deadlines, but then it, during COVID, I was getting very forgetful. So like walking into a room and then going like, what am I doing here? It was just things sort of just built up and looking back when I was a child, I can now see why my grades started to drop because the mechanisms and the how everything was being taught wasn't reflecting with my learning style, which I now know and I implement in my day-to-day working sort of manner.

Like time management, I was always late for everything. I still am late for everything, but I know now I'm sort of just learning to take steps and luckily I'm in a very supportive environment to do that. So yeah, it's a bit, bit weird, but now it's really good though, when we sort of bring in new trainees, new apprentices, I'm always open with them to be, you know, I'm a lawyer, but I'm also [00:10:00] neurodivergent and it's not impossible to do a degree, be a lawyer with that because, you know, there's still quite a lot of stigma being attached to being neurodivergent.

Ellie: Thank you very much. Lots of really interesting and fantastic things that we'll hopefully touch on as we keep going. But I think in particular what you said and also what you touched on in the end there, it's really nice. I obviously completely agree with your advice, but I do think a lot of our listeners are kind of school or university age.

And it is nice to hear that things can go wrong and you know, you don't always get the great thing and it doesn't mean that the dream or the ambition to be a lawyer is just over.

Emily: 100%. You just got to work exceptionally hard if it goes wrong. You really do. But that's where you. You try to avoid that just by taking the steps to make sure you are going to lectures, you are doing the reading.

And also, I mean, schools and universities are fantastic. If you're struggling, you can contact your law [00:11:00] tutors, you can make contact with the student union. And there are always resources available to be able to help you to succeed, essentially. So it's always, make sure you're always reaching out. I didn't do that, I should have done.

Hindsight is a fantastic thing. But again, I was very lucky because I had some very supportive tutors who knew I was able to succeed and that's, you know, they were able to push me onto that master's. So it's making that opportunity for you. And also, even if you're in high school, if you feel like you're struggling and you're not totally understanding something, or you may think actually how you're being taught just.

You're saying more visually rather than sort of reading, have a chat with your teachers because they may be able to help you or find another way to teach you how to do something in which you'll suddenly click and go, Oh my gosh, yes, I totally get that now.

Ellie: Yeah, definitely. Thank you. I think [00:12:00] they're appreciating the system at university and how much support that can be.

That's really good advice. And you've, you've spoken about your incredibly diverse role as an kind of areas you're involved with and if I could just like touch more specifically on, could I ask about your position as like technical specialist with the legal solutions and what that role involves?

Emily Cox: Yes. So as a technical specialist, that essentially boils down to the legal technology. When I started at WBD workplace I'd been to where they brought wide access to lots of legal tech, essentially software. And for me, and for my neurodivergent brain, I just thought, wow, and I just, as much as I could, I looked at it, I used it and then consistently broke it. So I'm now part of our early adopter [00:13:00] team for our IT systems because I am exceptionally good at breaking technology. So for me being the sort of a legal specialist, when it comes to the technology, I'm quite lucky in the position because I'm able to trial all of the technology and bringing and sort of work with our legal technology team to bring in specific technologies that we feel would be a benefit to the firm.

Or benefits to employees as well. And this could be from document automation. So a lawyer comes to me and goes, I need 500 settlement agreements to be produced. Now, back in the day, we would have had to individually produce 500 settlement agreements. That's a lot of work and that would take a lot of time.

Now with document automation, essentially we can stop sort of low code. It's really low code, no code, but soft code. So essentially from one piece of software, we've [00:14:00] got all the claimant details by a click of a button, all of that information will fall into another document and we'll just repeat across the documents and we'll have automated essentially 500 documents.

So it reduces down your time. Reduces down the price as well, because this current climate, you know, clients as well, are very conscious of the costs of living, the costs of their own businesses. So with legal technology, you have to be very commercially aware of also what is going on in the world is essentially what your client wants and then sort of other technology that we're sort of currently trialing, obviously AI is a huge thing at the moment.

So I am part of our working AI group. So we are basically testing lots of AI systems and looking at how we as a business could use it, or even thinking or how our clients going to be using that AI. So [00:15:00] again, being in an AI working group, I need to understand AI. I need to understand, you know, machine learning.

So I've become a bit of a specialist there because I go away after work and I go look up and sort of work out and understand. So when I go back to work the next day, I can apply that sort of technical. Sort of specialism because I have looked at how the sort of like chat GPT works. I mean, we don't use that in WBD, but I know chat GPT is huge at the moment, but it's understanding prompt engineering as well.

So being able to apply that, that's great fun. Love doing that. And strangely enough, it looks like there's a study currently neurodivergence are actually very good. At prompt engineering, because of how sort of direct we can ask a question essentially, and how we think about things. And then alongside that, it's sort of building like HQ system.

So HiQ is a [00:16:00] software that we use. And again, that's low code, no code. So it's just. When I first joined WBD, I'd never come across no code, no code before. And over the years, essentially, I just go away in the evenings. I teach myself no code, no code by playing on systems. And because of that, I now, I'm slowly teaching myself how to actually code in Python, for example.

So that's sort of, because I'm fascinated by also what goes on behind the scenes, even when it comes to, you know, no code, no code on the front end. I want to see what's going on behind. So I would say an interest in coding, the legal technology side of things, the way the legal industry. Is transforming sort of AI legal technology.

None of that is going to disappear, you know, that I think it is here to stay essentially, but it's, if you're able to [00:17:00] understand it and being able to fly it in your day to day work, that's quite advantageous. So being able to sit in a law firm that can provide me the opportunity to do that, build my sort of specialist knowledge.

Essentially, and I'll go out to other lawyers in WBD and ask, right, what projects are you working on at the moment? What are your clients pain points? Is there a project they're working on currently that they're struggling with and they feel like they may need some technical help and then that way we can go to the client and actually look at, right, well, you want to understand what are the future developments of employment law, well, we could produce system for you where you get regular updates on employment development.

So rather than your team having to search the internet, look at the government website, try and work out whether or not there'd been developments, we'll do it all for you and [00:18:00] it will be automated, et cetera. So it's, it's great fun to be in that role. And I work with alongside like a fantastic legal tech team, know a lot more about it than I do.

I mean, they. I learn a lot from them. They've taught me how to sort of code, no code and document automation. So a lot of my knowledge has. Come from them. So I work with Mercy in our Bristol office and Mercy Chereau. If anyone wants to check her out, she's on TikTok. She's on LinkedIn. She mentors anyone who's interested in legal technology.

Get in contact with her. She knows, she knows she's basically taught me everything, but I'm, I'm lucky that I can. Do it alongside and have my lawyer hat on at the same time because I always have to be thinking about risk. I have to be thinking about security, data breaches, et cetera. So I can essentially test and trial products, but making sure that they would actually [00:19:00] sit in a regulated business essentially.

Ellie: Thank you. That's so interesting. And legal technology innovation is something that we're just constantly hearing about in headlines and, and seeing how you've experienced it with the transformation. It's just, it seems like such an interesting area to work in at the moment. So quite a big question, but I wanted to ask, like, where do you see profession developing in the future and what changes do you predict kind of in lieu of legal technology?

Emily Cox: Yeah. So the, the legal industry has, has undergone significant transformation over gosh, past few decades. And that's largely driven by advancements in technology. I mean, looking to the future, I mean, it's clear that sort of legal tech. So that, and that's including artificial intelligence, generative AI will continue to shape the industry.

I mean, if we look at the sort of. The traditional legal landscape in the past, the, the legal [00:20:00] sector was characterized by very manual processes, extensive paperwork and reliance on sort of precedent documents. Legal research was time-consuming. I can remember days when I had to sit down with volumes of law books and case reports, and I had to sift through all of them to find legal research, you know, as a paralegal, as a trainee, document drafting, contracts, and sort of legal correspondence were manually prepared.

I mean, this is back when we're writing letters. I know that's probably very unheard of now, hand drafting letters. And that always led to basically inefficiencies and errors. And most client lawyer interactions were primarily face to face. And so essentially that just builds up to a very slow, very costly legal process.

So tools have increased the arrival of technology is essentially led towards a shift in digitalization [00:21:00] and automation. And you can have tools now based on document management, legal research, and even billing tools just to make the billing process a lot faster. So. AI power tools have begun to automate routine tasks.

So that could be doc, doc review, contract analysis. And this essentially is freeing up lawyers to focus on more complex strategic tasks. So, I mean. Looking at the present, AI is starting to become a staple in the legal industry. We have applications ranging from predictive analytics to natural language processing.

So Gen AI is obviously is really pushing the boundaries as far as possible. It's generating new content based on learned patterns and data inputs. So. Essentially, it's not only speeding up the drafting process, but it's also reducing the risk of human error. At the same time, we are seeing a rise [00:22:00] of alternative legal service providers and that sort of leveraged technology to deliver.

Legal services more efficiently and cost effectively. So, and essentially these providers are challenging traditional law firms and therefore reshaping the legal services market. So there is a huge sort of digital, digital revolution going on. We can't avoid it. And legal technology has transformed traditional legal processes into streamlined and efficient systems.

We have legal research tools, e discovery, which is sort of like a disclosure platform where you can search through thousands and thousands of documents to find the one document you're looking for. Document automation and practice management software have essentially become standard in most law firms.

And then We've got AI powered chatbots are now handling [00:23:00] customer queries. We're seeing that out in America. And then we've got machine learning, which is being used in contract reviews, identifying patterns and anomalies faster and more accurate accurately than human counterparts. So the future is very difficult because.

The speed of how legal tech is transforming, how AI is transforming. It's at an exceptionally rapid pace. And currently the law is not keeping pace at the moment. So I'm sure we can expect to see more sophisticated AI tools capable of handling complex tasks, such as legal reasoning, decision making. So the traditional role of the lawyer is going to transform into something more, I think.

I think the future of legal services is going to be characterized by greater client centricity. You know, clients are becoming more tech savvy, and so they're going to want their lawyers to be more [00:24:00] transparent, personalized, and also on demand legal services. So every law firm I'm sure is looking at how they can leverage technology to meet those evolving client expectations.

I mean, AI machine learning. This will become more sophisticated, I'm sure. So leading to automation and predictive capabilities, we've got blockchain technology. So that could revolutionize contract law and intellectual property rights. And then we've also got virtual and augmented reality that could transform court proceedings, for example.

So, I mean, the future is bright, but there could be many, many challenges. I alluded to earlier, one of the main hurdles is because we've got a real lack of clear regulations concerning the use of AI in the legal sector. There are concerns about data security and privacy. And there are also ethical considerations of AI [00:25:00] decision making.

So with the adoption of new technologies, it does require significant investment, significant training, which can obviously be a bit more prohibitive for small endorphins. But when it comes to you. The challenges we've got to look at the future and go, right, we need to think about job displacements. You know, there are concerns that AI could automate tasks currently performed by humans, which could lead to job displacements.

We need to look at that. I personally think AI is not going to completely replace lawyers. There is always going to be I think lawyers and AI and legal technology work well together. You can't read now it's because we can't really have one without the other. They sort of coexist together. And the lawyer is essentially giving a higher level review. Also I think we don't want to become over-dependent on technology because over-reliance on AI can lead to a lack of human [00:26:00] oversight and, also a loss of essential skills. So we need to maintain that balance of AI automation and human involvement. And we know the regulatory changes, there's lots of challenges.

The EU were already taking action with the AI acts. So we're just waiting for that to essentially. be drafted and, you know, signed off that we need to make sure that we have a legal and regulatory framework. So we closed the gap between what AI can do and what the law actually allows AI to do. And there is, there is a skills gap when it comes to AI specialists.

At the moment, there is a, it's quite a demand for AI specialists and there is a short in job. So because of that shortage, that means it's difficult for organizations to actually implement and leverage AI effectively. But I mean, the flip side is with, with [00:27:00] using AI in the legal sector, it does have advantages.

It's 24/7 availability. AI can help identify potential legal risks and issues before they become problems. So that's like a risk management. And it also helps with innovation. It can actually drive innovation in legal services, leading to sort of development of new business models and services, and you're able to customize sort of the legal services.

So, you know, helping provide a more personalized service to clients, essentially. So, I mean, there is a, there's a lot going on. We are in a digital age. It's a very vibrant and evolving. landscape. I mean, the legal tech and AI have already made significant strides in transforming the industry and their potential for future innovation is.

And then it's just a few years ago, we didn't have a single chat GPT, and now it's [00:28:00] absolutely blown up. So there is potential to be fully realized. We have to address the challenges though to make sure we have regulatory frameworks, ethical guidelines, and ongoing investment in training and development.

So the future of the legal industry essentially boils down to how well it can adapt. And involved with these technological advancements.

Ellie: Thank you. That's that's so interesting. There's so many different things to consider. The positive, the potential regulations. Very interesting. And now to focus on a slightly different area.

And as equally important, diversity and inclusion are important and a really developing focus in the legal world. So could you please tell us a little bit about your projects within these areas?

Emily Cox: Certainly. So, Diversity actually, and inclusion. Huge passion of mine and I'm very lucky that the firm are very supportive of that passion.

So we have a [00:29:00] variety of networks at wd. We have our WD disability network, our WBD reach network, which is for our BAM colleagues. And then we have our WBD Pride, which is for our LGBTQ plus colleagues, WBD Thrive, which is more sort of driven towards sort of empowering females in the industry and sort of providing opportunity to pursue those careers.

So I sit on a WBD Disability Steering Committee, essentially. And my focus within the network is essentially on neurodiversity, but I sit on. All the other networks as an ally. So each network is open to members and very much safe spaces for members to talk and also allies. So we can like learn ourselves.

I'm, I'm white. I'm from quite a privileged background in comparison to others. So I learned a lot when I attend WBD reach [00:30:00] meetings, you know, hearing colleagues stories about their difficulties getting into the profession, but also discrimination that they face. The same with our WBD Pride Network, the disabilities they found getting into the profession and discrimination that they have faced and WBD Thrives.

Again, it's, it's supporting others, but it's fantastic. We, we encourage male allies. So we have a lot of male allies in WBD Thrives to pursue the gender of such a supporting a woman in the workplace. So. We at WBD, we do, gosh, do quite a lot when it comes to diversity, equity, inclusion. I mean, for example, in the disability network over the last.

Gosh, two years we've introduced a reasonable adjustments policy at WBD and we have created a neurodiversity toolkits. So colleagues, line managers, whoever you are in the law firm, you can access it [00:31:00] and have support. With everything to do with neurodiversity, whether that's explanations of, you know, what neurodiversity is, you know, how to schedule meetings for someone who may be diverse, helpful tips and tricks on how to do your day to day life if you are neurodivergent.

And at the same time, we've also run a disability inclusion in legal profession webinar with the law society, which was fantastic. We had over 200 attendees. It's brilliant if anyone wants to get hold of the recording, if you email events at WBD hyphen K. com, the recording is fantastic. And also WBD have signed up to diversity lab commitments recently.

And that's actually off the back of. Achieving Mansfield Rural Certification in the UK. So that requires 30 percent diverse candidates for 70 percent of internal roles, lateral hiring, promotions, and participation in pitch [00:32:00] meetings. So that's all about hiring diverse candidates and that's something we're very supportive of.

We see that having diverse employees. You know, means that we have diverse thinking we have, everyone's got a rich background. They all bring different strengths to the workplace. And so we're, we're always looking to promote that and hire in and support some already support those that are in our business.

And what else we've done for disability. So. The last year we did our first sort of celebration of Neurodiversity Celebration Week with the ADHD Foundation Umbrellas. So across all our UK offices, we had colorful umbrellas at all our offices. And we held events to celebrate neurodiversity and sort of have webinars to essentially educate our colleagues about neurodiversity.

We provide sunflower lanyards to anyone in the business who wants one. But National [00:33:00] Inclusion Week 2023, we did finger painting as a network. So that was made essentially making our mark for diversity and all of our finger paintings again across all offices now sit proudly in place on the walls, which is lovely to see.

And we always sort of trying to raise awareness of the disability network. So raising awareness on Rare Disease Day, World Cancer Day, World Sickle Cell Day. We worked with our WBD REACH colleagues on that cause there's a lot of intersectionality there. And we had a, a fantastic colleague come forward and discuss about international sort of stuttering awareness day.

And it's great because all of these networks, not just disability, but all of these networks make the effort to educate colleagues in the business. So at the moment it's, it's Pride History Month. So our WBD Pride group doing a lot of sort of education. On the history and of what an LGT, [00:34:00] LGBTQ plus colleagues history of what they sort of gone through, and we always have Black History Month as well at WBD.

So again, we get to learn from our colleagues about sort of Windrush, for example different cultures and different food, for example, it's brilliant, it's brilliant when they sort of celebrate sort of Diwali or anything like that, because we get new food in the canteen and it's just like incredible. So we're always sort of driving that education point, driving the awareness, but also making sure that we are sort of supportive.

So at WBD Reach, we have now introduced the Halo Code. So the business and the businesses are signatory to Halo Code, which is all about celebrating colleagues hair and having it natural. So really proud that we've been able to sort of adopt this. And also WBD which ran a program last year, which was an internship program called 10, 000 Black Interns.

So we're looking at running that [00:35:00] again this year alongside 10, 000 able interns as well. And, and this is, again, we're making sure that they're trying to introduce students who may have not got a traditional background, maybe sort of more social mobility, trying to give them the opportunity to see what a career in law is like, and then.

Again WBD Reach have introduced reverse mentoring, so their network members will go out and essentially reverse member senior leadership at WBD, which was, that was really well received. Leadership learnt a lot about that and sort of looking at learning about, about colleagues struggles. And. We're, we're very lucky.

We have a fantastic sort of HR and sort of learning developments training team. So we've always got regular webinars about sort of unconscious bias and just constantly trying to make sure that we're all sort of supportive of each other and essentially allowing everyone to [00:36:00] come to work as yourself that you don't, you don't need to hide.

Which I think is a really sort of lovely message to have. And again, it's. It's a very supportive environment and, and because of that, we get nominated for awards. So our Disability Network just been shortlisted for the British Diversity Awards this year, and we were shortlisted for a Diversity and Inclusion Award for the whole business at LexisNexis Legal Awards, was it five awards were shortlisted for at the Legal 500 Northern Our House Awards and that's including ESG and diversity inclusion. It's fantastic. And then we've also got a team that are really pushing forward with social mobility. So we hosted a Strive social mobility event for 40 students to sort of share experiences and break down barriers.

So everyone in the business is always working really, really hard [00:37:00] to ensure that it's diversity, equity, and inclusion is here to stay. It is exceptionally important. For me, it's very, very important. I really do think it just boils down to re-imagining the possibilities of having an inclusive profession where we want every human to.

Thrive in our business, not just survive. And we want to share the hope and dream that the best opportunities are coming. So it's always, we want to hire it the best essentially, but that can be from again, diverse, any background, any religion, any disability, any social mobility background, I think a business can only just thrive.

From there, essentially, because everyone thinks differently, you know, bringing your own experience in. And I mean, I work with so many fantastic colleagues from different [00:38:00] backgrounds, different religions. They travel from different countries, so it's different family backgrounds, but that doesn't stop us from doing like the best work.

That's why we do such good work. And again, I think that's why we do so well in diversity, equity, and inclusion is because we are all so diverse and we're all very passionate to be able to make sure that anyone coming into, into the legal industry. Sees that it is, we are committed to promoting inclusion in that the legal profession.

It is so, so important and it, it's great to see that the North Society as well, they really are committed to promoting inclusion in the legal profession. They are a really great supporter in, in that arena, and no matter how big or small a firm is in-House team is or an organization is. There's always positive change that can be made to improve inclusion in the legal industry.

So we're always [00:39:00] exceptionally busy, but it's always a great fun and it's a great team to be part of, to sort of keep driving and driving for that positive change, essentially.

Ellie: Thank you. And that sounds just the kind of breadth that is being achieved. It sounds just fantastic. I think my follow-up question, I'm definitely asking on kind of just general looking at different legal firms and, and I suppose law, in general, the legal world, I guess it's the word I'm using, but do you think in general the legal world is doing enough to support lawyers with disabilities? And how do you think in general firms are getting it right and how could they improve for the future?

Emily Cox: Yes. Great question. I've been, I always want to live in a world where there's always room for improvement. We should never just, oh, we've done enough and that's it. I think there's, we should, there's always opportunity to improve, do more learn from those who are in [00:40:00] that sort of position.

So, you know, lawyers with disabilities, for example, rather than just thinking, oh, we know what they want, we'll implement that. It's actually going to those people affected and go, actually. What, what do you need first support, et cetera. So it, I, I think that is across sort of any really for any sort of inclusion.

So whether it's LGBTQ plus communities, our BAME communities, social mobility, disability, et cetera, it is always going out to those people. And learning from those people and always looking to improve, essentially. I, I do think that is super important. And I know there was legal research done by Cardiff University and Legally Disabled, the Law Society and the Disabled Solicitors Network essentially came up with sort of guidance to be able to essentially assist Solicitors who are [00:41:00] disabled in the industry and sort of entry, but also looking like easy wins that companies can do questions to get sort of discussions going. We only see sort of information on the internet about actions you should be taking, but essentially the documents that were produced were sort of supporting companies and how to start to improve the process of understanding barriers faced by disabled people and sort of taking steps to embed disability equality into policies, procedures, but also importantly, organizational culture. There is always recommendations to aim to remove the disadvantage that disabled people in. This list is profession-based. Everyone should always strive to understand what accessibility and inclusion means in practice, and how to monitor that progress, and working, again, as I said, working closely with disabled staff to identify those priorities, the solutions, and [00:42:00] timescales.

When I last looked, it was something like 16 million disabled people in the UK. And approximately one in four people with most disabilities being non visible, which in light of that, it's clear that disability affects us all. And this could be directly or indirectly. So it could be through family, friends, just people you work with.

And it's not just being disabled. It could be long term health conditions as well. So disability inclusion is absolutely. essential. And so again, there's always room for improvement there. And it was really interesting when we, we had the webinar with, with the Law Society and the Law Society's Disabled Solicitors Network.

The conversation, I mean, the panel explored quite a few sort of core topics. And because there is lots of [00:43:00] discussions going on, about why disability can seem a bit like a neglected area for inclusion work. There are challenges in making progress in disability. And that's the thing is there's always a fear of getting it wrong, which is totally understandable.

And, you know, lots of firms are making real strides on this and they're really sort of discussing internally and externally on why disability matters to their firm. There's so many benefits of people being supported to meet their potential. And the strengths of disabled people, they can be forgotten.

But again, I feel like it's because people don't want to get it wrong, essentially. So it's always looking as well as sort of businesses are in just in the legal industry. It's looking at how we can improve. Disability representation. So having safe spaces, being able to talk to people, to actual [00:44:00] data collection, to see how many disabled people are in the law firm or in business and recruitment, for example, reasonable adjustments.

I mean, for example, at, at WBZ, our recruitment team, Oh, they've done a fantastic job, they've, they've totally overhauled our recruitment process. We have potential-based assessments to allow candidates to, to essentially showcase themselves in another way, like in their own way, rather than the traditional sort of ask very set questions about your experiences.

You can actually showcase yourself in a very different way. We now have an accessibility tool on our recruitment website to make sure it's accessible to all candidates. So this could be, they may have a visible disability invisible disability or invisible disability. It could be, maybe they are partially blind, for example, that accessibility tool that is there to help [00:45:00] people but also at the same time.

We've really worked hard on our own websites, provided lots of accessibility information for each of our offices locations. So just simple things like there's a ramp available for anyone who needs to use a ramp. The what3words location, so for some people. Not having an actual fixed location that can, that could be quite anxiety driven and not knowing how to get there and sort of missing, you know, local train stations, et cetera.

And it's simple things that could be done to just to make the environment just more accessible. And then we've also signed up to a new job site, which is not only at diversity, equity, inclusion. Focused, but it's also a place to talk about WBD's benefits and our diversity, equity, inclusion work. And we also work very closely with the business disability forum as [00:46:00] well.

So it's a great way of showing candidates or anyone who wants to join WBD. They can actually find out more about us. So rather than just going on the website and we say, yes, we do lots of work for disability and inclusion, they can actually go to a job site and see a lot more in that space just to see how sort of accessible we are.

So it's great to see we've got the law society, a real sort of driving force there when it comes to promoting accessibility, there's. Always steps to be taken. We internally have developed awareness massively over the last few years. I mean, we were talking about disability. Gosh, I, I joined five years ago.

Prior to then, the firm was talking about disability. It's only recently our disability network was set up, but still having those conversations and driving that forward because again, [00:47:00] It's, it's very easy to judge people, their perceived circumstances, but I think if that's one thing the pandemic taught us was we have no idea what is going on in other people's lives.

So, I mean, you could have someone who has a non-disabled disability, they could be a parent or a carer. For someone with a disability or a long-term condition. They could be menopausal or anxious or grieving or actually just having a really terrible day. So it's always giving people the benefits of the doubts.

And it's, it's really lovely to see over the years, especially like in my career, I can just see the legal industry really pushing. For this accessibility and inclusion and clients are talking about accessibility and inclusion. Now they want to know about what their law firm is doing. That's very important to lots of clients.

So it's, it's great [00:48:00] when we're able to, you know, to get around to our clients, go, these are access successes. This is what we've been doing. And it'ss, I mean, lots more steps to go. I mean, there's always a very difficult conversation over language being used, non-intrusive language. I think we need to give permission for others to get it wrong, because that's the only way that we're going to learn essentially. And also every individual has a very different perspective on language. Bit like with being a neurodivergent, now to look at whether or not you're disabled, you have to go to the Equality Act 2010, now with the sort of behaviours in neurodivergence that technically could be a disability and there are other sort of variables involved there in the Equality Act.

I don't like referring to myself as disabled for me, my neurodivergency is not a disability. Yes, it can be [00:49:00] an absolute pain, like running late all the time and hyper-focusing on like food, for example. One thing I do is deep diving. If I'm interested in something, I'll start looking at TikTok and then six hours later, I've suddenly realised I've still sat in the same place, looking at TikTok and all that time has gone.

But. I don't think it disables me, it is my, my strength. I've lived with it for many years. I've just adapted and the strengths there are very, I'm very creative and I work very well under pressure and give me anything to research and I will come back to you in an hour later being an absolute expert in it because I already researched it so thoroughly.

So. There is an issue here with language because everyone is very different when it comes to language. But again, it's all about speaking with your employees and sort of, again, treating everybody as an individual. [00:50:00] But no, it, it's really, it's really great to see how there is so much support. And I mean, we do have to constantly challenge assumptions.

And overcome barriers, like when I was interested in becoming a solicitor or a barrister. It can be a very daunting journey, just not being disabled, not being part of the same community or an LGBTQ-plus community. It is still a very daunting experience. And if you're a disabled student, it's an extremely competitive environment that can feel even more overwhelming.

And, and then you've got to worry about additional. Barriers that you have to overcome because of assumptions and lack of knowledge as well. So it's, it's great that employers are now realizing they're missing out on the massive talent and are increasingly committed to recruiting candidates who can help shape a [00:51:00] dynamic and diverse environment.

And I think that's the one good thing that came out of the pandemic. Everyone had to be remote working. So. The move to sort of hybrid and remote working has acted to improve access to many disabled people and those with caring responsibilities. So, entry into a solicitor's profession is open to a wide range of candidates.

Being disabled does not exclude you. Many, many years ago it was a different story, but now it's really refreshing to see How inclusive everybody is, is coming. The journey never stops. I think we must always improve.

Ellie: Thank you very much. I think that's really important things to always be looking forward to the future and seeing how things can be improved.

And you touched a little bit on this. Now, as our final question, we often ask, the majority of our listeners are, as I've said, school, university age, [00:52:00] aspiring solicitors or barristers. So what advice would you give an aspiring solicitor, particularly those studying or practicing who are neurodivergent or those with a disability?

Emily Cox: Great question. In my spare time, I do lots of mentoring. So, And it's a question I get asked a lot, and it's always one I've got to think about because I know my brain will start firing out everything under the sun. But I think it's really important to pick up on the point of studying or practicing with a disability, because we have to think about things a little bit differently.

So I think the first point is your own self-awareness. So what makes you different? What is essentially your USP? You may be disabled or have a long term health condition, but what are your strengths? Is it resilience? Is it grit? Is it strength? Is it your creativity? Look at how [00:53:00] you work. It's taken me, gosh, a good two years to figure out how I work best as a neurodivergent.

So I have a, an egg timer on my desk to basically do the, use the Pomodoro method. To do my work in short spurts. If I've got a large document to draft, for example, I will go into hyper-focus mode, but to do that, I need to cut myself off from the rest of my team so I don't get distracted by notifications.

So that means hiding my phone under my bed, for example. So I can't reach it. So I can't go on to TikTok. I turn off all distractions essentially have to go. It's also, you know, looking at how I sort of time manage myself. So I use my diary to block out slots in the day where I need to do a particular piece of work, but also looking at parts of the day to make sure that I am taking breaks.

Again, if I'm hyper [00:54:00] focused, I could not move from my desk, for example, for quite a while. And also taking time for myself to sort of exercise, because again, that helps with the day to day, and that's what I need in my day to help me just manage my day and manage my neurodivergency. So it's looking at how you work and how best you work, because I find that I could ask many students or anyone looking at apprenticeships come in and asking them, how do you best work?

They can be absolutely flummoxed because you've never actually had to sit and think about how you best work. So do you work best on your own or do you work best in a team environment? You know, do you have to have really good communication in that team? And actually even thinking about how you best like to communicate with people and take feedback.

Is that on a telephone call? Is that a video call? [00:55:00] Or, like me, I like to have feedback and communication in emails, because I find sometimes in a call, I'll take it all in. But I need to go away and think about it. So actually having that written down note, I can then remember and focus and then sort of work out in my head what I need to do, et cetera.

So he's actually thinking, yeah, thinking about yourself, your work, but also thinking about, you know, what, what does make you different? So for me, that's problem solving. I like solving problems. I'm good at solving problems, but I'll solve them creatively. They all tell you to think outside the box. You know, there is truth to that because I've got my brain to thank for that.

It's, I will just think very differently from how the rest of my team think, but that's great because then when we come together and collaborate, it means that we can create something even bigger and better essentially. And then I would [00:56:00] also suggest checking out the Law Society website. They have produced some fantastic guides and documents for anyone who is.

A disabled student and that is looking to become a solicitor. So, you know, they've produced a great guide and essentially it's, it discusses it about sort of challenging those assumptions and overcoming the barriers. What sort of. available support there is for you. So for example, at universities, et cetera, they may have be able to provide materials in other formats.

So it could be braille documents, for example, looking at timetabling room provision for the requirements of a student. You know, if I thought about it, I mean, I would have loved to be able to do my exams on my own in a room. I need to have total quiet when I'm working essentially, or flip side, if I'm in hyper-focus mode, I have to have [00:57:00] my ear pods in with music absolutely blasting with my hyper focus song, which has been going round and round on my playlist.

I think about the last month and sort of provision of study skills, tuition, because again, sometimes disabled students may just actually struggle with the study skills. And, you know, again, you can have special arrangements for exams and assignments. So then the, also the law society able to pinpoint, you know, sort of employer responsibilities as well.

Sort of what reasonable adjustments are there for you in the workplace. So that could be allowing flexibility, providing specialist equipment, moving desks to ensure physical accessibility. Again, providing material, different formats, and then adjusting recruitment processes. And that could be interviews and assessment centers.

There is also the access to work government scheme, which can help [00:58:00] employers cover up to 100 percent of the costs for adjustments necessary to support you in your job as well once you get there. And there are a variety of sort of funding opportunities as well for disabled students. So there is a disabled students allowance.

I believe that's for when you apply for an undergraduate or a post postgraduate course. And. There is the Law Society Diversity Access Scheme, and that's a scholarship scheme essentially. And then it, I think it boils down to the very difficult question is of whether or not you share your disability.

And I, I do appreciate it is very difficult to decide if you feel comfortable with doing that. It's only till when I sort of realized during COVID that I was neurodivergent. I then started sharing my difficulties with my employer. It is a difficult choice. It is totally an [00:59:00] individual decision. There is no legal requirement for you to disclose your disability.

However, if you do disclose your disability, say if you're going for interviews, for example, It does, it does allow that employer the opportunity to make reasonable adjustments for you. And these could be really simple adjustments. So it just could be allowing you extra time to answer questions, or it could be if you're having a in person interview, allowing you to come to the building like two days before, just so you can get used to the building, the environment, where you're going to be having your interview, just so you can get used to your own environment.

But it is. Totally down to you. I know now in myself that if I was going to interviews, I would say to the interviewer and it's the prep for interview when you're sort of working out when you're going to meet, I would tell them that I'm neurodivergent. But I mean, I've got many years [01:00:00] experience now I'm much more confident in myself.

If I think about back to when I was in high school, if I know now. That back then, if I'd known that I was neurodivergent, I still don't think I would have been confident enough to disclose because when I was in high school, there was still a lot of stigma attached to say, autism, ADHD, OCD. And I think that if you're not sure about what to do, speaking with your families, with your friends, those close to you, because, you know, they, they're the ones who know you, know who you are, and they'll be able to at least give you some guidance. But at the end of the day, it's just, it does come down to you. But at least if you do disclose it, that gives the employer an opportunity to make reasonable adjustments for you. I would suggest on job advertisements, look out for the disability confidence scheme [01:01:00] that some employers use.

And that essentially guarantees an interview for those that meet. The minimum requirements of the job, but that's essentially, you know, for anyone who has a disability, but it was also a disability confident logo on job advertisements. And this indicates that the employer has made a commitment to employing disabled people.

So if you do choose to share your disability, there are. Many different ways that you can do this is probably best in a cover letter rather than your CV, but I would keep the cover letter positive and highlighting past achievements and, you know, just showcasing your strengths essentially. And. Remember that an employer should not be asking any questions about your health or disability on an application form.

There could be a separate monitoring form, which is normally totally, that is totally anonymous, and that will not be part of the decision making process, but that's [01:02:00] essentially to help employers with their diversity, equity, inclusion. So looking at, you know, are they recruiting from socially mobile backgrounds?

Are they recruiting disabled, BAME, LGBTQ plus communities, et cetera. So don't, don't worry about that. If you're going for interview or looking at roles, you know, they may ask questions about reasonable adjustments. So a cover letter, even the application form is a good opportunity for you to outline the positive aspects of your disability.

And you know, don't undersell your abilities. You always want to focus on the positive rather than the negative, and you should only talk about disability in terms of relevance to your performance or in the role, and emphasize how it's essentially enabled you to further develop. Any of the skills that the organization is looking for.

So, you know, creativity, and if you've got, you know, if you're ADHD, for example, I'm sure you could discuss, you know, [01:03:00] lots about that. So many attitudes and assumptions made by employers are based on lack of knowledge and experience by openly talking about adjustments required. will then educate them and they will then gain experience and knowledge to be able to not just assist you, but assist many other people in that process.

And you know, you are protected by law. You have the Equality Act 2010, and that provides a legal framework that protects people who meet statutory definition of Disability from direct and indirect discrimination and harassment due to their disability. Check out the Disabled Solicitors Network as well.

They promote equal opportunities for disabled people within the legal profession. So anyone can join and that is whether or not you identify as disabled. And you don't have to be a qualified solicitor at all. So they've got some fantastic material as well on their website. [01:04:00] And also I'd suggest, you know, with mentoring, there are many sort of mentoring schemes out there.

There are sort of schemes specifically for disabled students, but there are just a general mentoring schemes that regardless of your background, they would welcome you. They essentially pair you with a lawyer in the industry, and you can discuss about the job, your CV, interviews, what is life like as a lawyer or a barrister.

So looking out for mentoring opportunities that's always going to. Actually figure out if you want to be a lawyer or a barrister at the end of the day. And there's lots of various virtual work experience placements that are available to students now. So you take a look at Forage, Oddline, WBZ, for example, have a virtual work experience placements on that.

And so do many of the law firms. And this is all [01:05:00] stemmed from lockdown during the pandemic. Students at the time still needed to get work experience. They wanted to see what life was like in the legal industry. So there are so many virtual work experience placements out there. So utilize those because it gives you the opportunity to meet with lawyers, working on actual legal work and getting feedback on that legal work.

And again, because they're virtual, it means successful to anyone, essentially, which is, which is fantastic. And remember when you're, if you're thinking about a career in law, whether in high school, if you're in university, remember that each law firm has its own personality, essentially. So I'd always do your research on the law firm and like, you know, look at sort of what are your own values as well in life and look at whether or not the [01:06:00] values of that law firm match your own values.

So the main. I'm very passionate about my diversity, equity, inclusion, and corporate social responsibility. And I, I wanted to go to a firm that was going to support me still being able to do that work and that their values were aligned with mine, that they were, that they wanted to do that work as well.

So, because at the end of the day, if you, you join a law firm. And you go, oh gosh, no, I don't like it, clearly, I, I, this is, I don't, you know, can't be a lawyer or a barrister. This is just not for me. Remember, it could just be the environment that you're in. It's, it's not, it's not the end of it at all.

But I'd always say, you know, Do your research on the firm, look at the various roles in the firm, principles, what is the firm's purpose and vision. And, you know, when you're speaking with HR for sort of interviews, you know, you can ask [01:07:00] questions like, do you have a reasonable adjustments policy? Now, what is career progression like in a firm and how do you assess it in an appropriate way to ensure that everyone has an equal opportunity?

So you, you can ask those questions of an author and reach, just reaching out to, this is when it comes to mentoring, reaching out and asking those questions during mentoring sessions will be exceptionally helpful because again, you're, you're paired with someone in. The legal industry and every person will have a very different experience of the legal industry.

And then also just like looking at studying and practicing with it. So more studying, I suppose, with a disability. I mean, there are so many. Tech options out there to help you study. I mean, if you struggle taking notes, maybe speak with your school or university about getting a scribe to assist you, and there's lots [01:08:00] of tech that you can have added to your computer or your laptop to help you. I mean, I, I've also got dyslexia, so I have a read aloud option when it comes to documents and emails. And I also use that. So when I'm, I'm typing and before an email gets sent, I'll use the read aloud function because I could read an email and not see any spelling mistakes. But then when I'm hearing this through my headphones, I can hear a word being said in a weird way.

So that flags to me straight away that I've made a spelling mistake. So. You know, use tech solutions, I use OneNote a lot to make sure I'm keeping on top of my own deadlines, keeping track of my work in progress. And I've got my timer to make sure that I'm good on time management. So it's really about using tools to help yourself as well.

So be the best version of you that you can be. So, you know, recognizing where you need the support and asking for [01:09:00] it, or actually good, right. What support do I need, and have I got the tech to support me? Have I got my day to day routine sorted to support me? Because I appreciate some people do need a set routine day to day.

It's looking at how many spoons you've got. I don't know if you've heard about the spoon analogy, but sometimes Specific tasks take up more spoons of energy essentially throughout the day, but a, a career in the legal industry, whether or not you are disabled is extremely fulfilling. So don't let joining, don't let joining the profession thinking it's not inclusive or accessible put you off because it is extremely accessible and inclusive.

And there are fantastic people out there who lawyers and barristers who are. Disabled, and they've made an incredible career for themselves. I mean, I think we, it was in the media recently, it was, you know, first, [01:10:00] first blind barrister who had qualified, which is absolutely incredible. And then, you know, there's technology that has been produced, which is defined, and that is used by.

A law firms or essentially a bit more like contract review, but this was produced by a blind lawyer, essentially. So being disabled does not prevent you. I think actually by having disabled students wanting to come into the profession, the profession can actually learn so much more from you and. You know, essentially you should use that as an empowerment because you have got, you've got strengths to bring to the profession and it's just taking every opportunity that you can.

To support yourself, you know, understand the legal industry, even things like, you know, attending like networking events. But again, ahead of time, if you need those reasonable adjustments, you contact [01:11:00] the event organizers and say, look, say if you are. You know, a wheelchair, for example, everywhere will always make accommodations for you to ensure that you've got equal opportunities like everybody else to attend that event.

So I think it's really important to remember. It is a very inclusive and a, you know, very accessible profession. You know, we're, we're always, always trying to prove, obviously. Yeah. The, the law society itself has some fantastic materials available to you. And then just make sure always, it's always lovely to have your support network behind you, supporting you, whether that's your friends, your family, it could be a teacher, grandparents, you know, anyone who is in your own networks, that is who supports you day in, day out, regardless of what you do, having that support network is always going to boost you when it comes to, you know, your study and your practice [01:12:00] and sort of pursuing profession. So, you know, make sure that. You can rely upon on those people because once you, once you get there, you'll look back and go, I shouldn't have worried kind of thing.

You know, I did everything for me and it's doing everything for you, but again, it's just a self awareness I think is the most important. What are your strengths, you know, and how do you work because you can then only benefit from that knowledge going forward.

Ellie: Thank you very much. That's some fantastic advice and focusing on a lot of different important areas kind of before and leading up to a legal career.

And thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Emily Cox: You're welcome. Thank you very much for having me [01:13:00]