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Ellie: [00:00:00] In this episode of Law Talks, Ellie is joined by Lefteris Papageniakis, who discusses his role as the director of the Greek Council for Refugees. This episode contains some terms used when discussing refugees and asylum seekers. Pushbacks entail a variety of state measures aimed at forcing refugees and migrants out of their territory while obstructing access to applicable legal and procedural frameworks.
So to start us off, could you please explain how you became director of the Greek Council of Refugees and what pathway your career take to end you in this role?
Lefteris: Yeah, so before I became the director of the Greek Council of Refugees, [00:01:00] I worked in another NGO called Solidarity Now, and I was the head of advocacy, uh, research.
Before that, I was the vice mayor of the assets for migration and refugee issues. And before that, I was working at the University of Essence, uh, as a public servant, et cetera. And I did, uh, uh, a lot of other essays. Um, when I was working as, when I was the, with the, the vice mayor for Athens, uh, I got to know almost all the NGOs who are, were active in, in Athens, but also.
In Greece, dealing with issues of refugees, asylum, integration, migration, etc. So everyone, basically everyone in the field. And when my term ended, I entered the space of NGOs. And I was also on the board of the Greek Council for Refugees. At some point, [00:02:00] our director changed, uh, line of work and applied to, to become the, you know, for the, for the position and the board I designed from the board, et cetera, of course, uh, and, uh, through a process, I became, uh, became the director of the delegation.
Um, it was very, it was a very interesting process. And I'm very happy and very proud, of the result of this. If I can call it a journey. Thank you. Anne, could you please explain what your main responsibilities as director are? So the main things that I do are I coordinate the teams through with, by, by collaborating with the, the heads of the departments, the legal team, uh, the social workers, psychologists, et cetera, the interpreters, but also the administrative team, which also has the programs unit, et cetera.
Um, I represent the, uh, organisation in, [00:03:00] in a number of, of, of activities. Um, I also write articles, I do interviews, I participate in conferences, I represent the organisation in, uh, meetings with, uh, international NGOs, uh, we have members, the Greek Council is a member of a number of, of big umbrella organisations, and I also represent us there.
I do the contacts with the governments, the European Commission, political parties, etc. So basically, you know, I do a type of political advocacy if you want, and representing the Greek Council. And I also, whenever it's possible, represent the Council in activities that colleagues cannot, when colleagues cannot do it, I must step in.
Also very important. I am the [00:04:00] link between the organisation and the board of the Greek Council. So I answer for everything to the, to the board of the, of the Greek Council, and I convey also the guidelines instructions of the board towards, you know, colleagues, which it's not a lot. I mean, the guidelines are set by, by, by our team.
And we just give a heads up to the council, to the board, and we try to, you know, uh, operate in the context of, of the larger guidelines that the board has, uh, uh, has decided, uh, that the Greek Council will operate, be operating in. Um, yeah, basically that's it. So it's everyday operations, advocacy, political advocacy, and representation if you want.
Ellie: Thank you. That is an interesting, diverse role. So the majority of our listeners tend to be based in the UK and are around sort of student university age. So from your role, please, could you [00:05:00] explain what the refugee situation currently is in Greece? And then in conjunction with this, what is the aim of the Greek Council of Refugees?
Lefteris: Look, for those who follow the issue of the refugee reality in the EU, but also globally, you know that Greece is, has found herself in the centre of all these debates for a number of years now, especially after 2014, 2015, with what we call, I disagree with the term, but that's another point, refugee crisis.
Greece, it's placed in a, in a very complicated area, the MENA region, uh, Middle East and, uh, uh, and the Mediterranean region. So it's, it's, it's a country that many things are happening at the same times. So the current situation is. Hasn't changed for the last years. Uh, we have, uh, people coming in. The number, you know, goes up or down depending [00:06:00] on the weather, but also depending on the conflicts in the area, but also depending on the political reality in the, in the neighbouring countries, especially Turkey.
Uh, so what all, all of the political, um, events, uh, affect The flow of people, how people move and when and in what numbers. Um, unfortunately, also during this period, Greece hasn't been, um, fulfilling the role of, uh, of the first exception country in the context of the EU, uh, with respect to, to fundamental rights, as it is the objective, as you know, the EU, uh, wants to guard the borders, but also with respect to fundamental rights, it's not happening.
Um, it is a very difficult and complicated, uh, reality, uh, a lot of tensions. Um, I would mention a number of categories, uh, if I can put, you know, a [00:07:00] name in what is happening in Greece in the context of what we call the refugee crisis. First of all, we, uh, the government is targeting migrants and refugees, it's vilifying them, the narrative is very toxic.
Unfortunately, Greece violates the human rights of migrants, we know that it's not only NGOs that say that, the UN system is calling us out. The EU in a sense, the Council of Europe, et cetera. Uh, so pushbacks are a very big thing, you know, you know, very annoying thing I would say. And we fight that and we try to advocate in order to, uh, bring the issue, uh, to keep the issue in, in the public, uh, debate.
Uh, and because of what we do, we are targeted, uh, from the government and we are vilified. Uh, we are considered in some cases to be the enemy of enemies of the state. And it's not only Greece that is happening. Yeah. We know that this is happening in also in Hungary and other [00:08:00] countries. Um, because migration is a, is a global issue and it's a very politicised issue, uh, that creates a lot of, uh, that produces a lot of toxic narratives, but also a lot of, of, of tensions.
But it's, it's, it's a highly politicised issue and it is political. I'm not saying it's not, it should be political, but not in the way it is happening now. So I would say that these three categories of things that are happening, you know, targeting migrants. Violating human rights, the fundamental rights, but and by protecting them or defending them, NGOs get also targeted, put on the spot by governments around Europe, but also around the world.
Of course, there are difficulties in accessing asylum. The procedures have become very, very complicated because the government is adding layers of procedures and legally it makes accessing asylum very complicated. The fact, [00:09:00] for example, that Greece has recognised Turkey as a safe country is impeding on the capacity of people to access asylum.
So there are a number of realities. And the last one, of course, is the, uh, the agreement on the, on the new pact for asylum and migration in the U that is also going to be, it is a very bad, very bad compromise. And it's going to affect, um, access. To asylum for migrants and refugees, but also by definition violates their rights.
So, uh, things are still in the process of becoming worse. I don't know if we're going to see ever going to see something becoming better. I highly doubt it for the moment. Um, and also another point is the conditions of reception. Uh, we won interim measures in the last days against Greece because of the conditions of, of reception and of reception of people in, in the new camps, the new closed control [00:10:00] camps who were paid by the European Union.
And apparently, the court at least recognised that these conditions are less than acceptable, far less than acceptable. So there is a number of things going on. It's changing all the time, but I think that the, you know, the broad lines of what is happening in Greece currently and what is the situation of people, uh, is, is You know, I think I presented them.
The last point that I wanted to add is the lack of integration. The point is the policy of integration at the national level is missing. And that means that people, for the moment, do not have a paved way towards legality or towards a normal life, if I can use this expression, which Needs a lot of discussion, uh, and it's not for now, but it is an important point.
So yes, I would say that things are quite bad, uh, getting worse, unfortunately. I'm sure in the last years, but also now then there are a lot of details and a lot of points that we can develop, but it would take a lot [00:11:00] of time to present everything. Uh, but the broad, the broad reality is what I described before.
Ellie: Thanks very much. That was a very, um, clear, concise description of the kind of. broad issues that refugees face in Greece. Could you tell us a little bit about the potential impacts of the new EU agreement, on refugees?
Lefteris: As you know, the agreement for the moment is the, is, is a political agreement, but also a legal one, but we don't know the details.
So the details, meaning all of the documents that need to be approved, all of the recommendations, et cetera, are not yet finalised. So in the next. Months or probably months, but before the election, the European one, uh, we will have the whole package. And, uh, from what we can gather through information, uh, of people who either participated in the negotiation, either have a good knowledge of the [00:12:00] negotiation, there are a number of very problematic points.
A lot of them are unsettled for the moment because it's, we don't know the details. But let me give you an example of what one of the procedures that is going to be implemented is. So someone steps foot into the union, and he's fake, he's under what we call the border, the border procedure and the procedure is going to change.
He might be that this procedure for a very long period of time, let's say 12 months, but at the same time, he will be considered not to have stepped foot in the union. So he will be, for example, in, I don't know, I can't be in the north of Greece under this procedure. But at the same time, he will not be considered to be in the union because he's in a virtual sphere of nothingness.
So it's, it's a complicated procedure that I don't have all the knowledge to describe it, but to, uh, keep people [00:13:00] out of the EU, if you want. During this time, he's not considered to be in the EU so that he can benefit from all the rights of someone who is in the EU. So it's, it's a way, if you want, to send a message.
To people who want to come into the you that this is going to be very difficult for them. It's, it's what we call the deterrence approach. Um, also there is, uh, an increased detention period, even for asylum seekers. depending on which process they are under. It's the classic process or a, uh, a faster process, a fast track process.
So it's all of these very, very important points that we need to see how they will be presented in a legal document. And then we can be more specific, but from the initial information that we have. It's going to be a very bad, uh, a very bad compromise. Unfortunately, the European Parliament didn't manage to hold its ground.
And, uh, in the, in, in the context of, [00:14:00] of having a dossier, I mean, voted the pact. It gave up a lot, of its positions, uh, which were more, you know, targeted towards the respect of human rights, fundamental rights, values of the U et cetera. So in the context of speeding up the procedure, unfortunately, the European parliament gave up on this, gave up its position and it's the council that is coming out if you want a victor from this procedure.
And as you know, the council represents the member states. And the member states have an approach that is very hostile. So we need to wait for the details, but from whatever we can gather from the information going around, it's a very bad document, unfortunately.
Ellie: Thank you. And yeah, this is something that I hope you will learn more about and will follow as our podcast as well.
And you've touched on this slightly talking about the complexity of the asylum procedure. Our podcast is mainly for aspiring lawyers. So do you mind [00:15:00] touching slightly on like the legal problems that refugees face in particular?
Lefteris: Look, the first very important point is the fact that in, in, in some cases they cannot access asylum.
First of all, because, as I mentioned, they are pushed back. So they do not have the opportunity to apply for asylum, or if they apply, they're not in Greece in order to defend their application, for example. And we have a number of cases. Some of these cases are now in The European Court for Human Rights, and we are waiting on the decision of the court to see if a pushback is going to be recognised.
For the moment, we don't have that type of decision. We are hopeful because we have, unfortunately, some good cases that are presented before the court. And we are waiting for some decisions, it will be useful for the advocacy for the organisations are doing. If the court recognises that there is a number of states doing pushbacks.
Also, the procedure and [00:16:00] sometimes is speeding up. And it's, as you know, it doesn't give the time though. We don't prepare people for the asylum, but it's, it's, it's a fast-track procedure. And sometimes not all the, uh, conditions are there for, for, uh, you know, safeguarding the procedure. Uh, sometimes it's the other way around, which is good in some cases.
In order to speed up the process and to limit the backlog, sometimes asylum is granted only by, uh, reviewing the dossier, et cetera. So it depends on the reality of the flaws if you want. Uh, in some cases, as I mentioned, also, uh, people who come from Turkey, uh, need to prove that they, they're not in danger in Turkey in order to be later on to be able to apply for asylum in Greece.
If they cannot prove that they're in danger in Turkey, they have to be returned to Turkey. That's the principle of the safe country, which is, it's very problematic to prove [00:17:00] that point is that only two countries have recognised Turkey as a safe country, Greece and Hungary. So that tells a lot about the political aspect of this decision and this approach.
Um, yeah, some, in some cases there are no lawyers present or no interpreters. So the procedures. Very complicated, uh, et cetera, et cetera. So it's, it's, it's becoming increasingly complicated to, to, to be applied for asylum and to, uh, you know, defend the one's application. Um, okay. Of course, there is a long procedure ahead.
You can go into the second degree and then defend it in the courts, et cetera. But the main, the main issue, I would say, apart from the complicated legal proceedings is the possibility to access the system of asylum. So the pushbacks, long detention periods, um, but reception conditions, et cetera. Uh, so yeah, it's an uphill [00:18:00] battle if you want, even in the legal context.
Ellie: So we've done, um, as well, we've done some research on like access to justice and that's a very big issue.
Lefteris: It's a very similar, it's a very similar discussion. Access to justice and access to asylum. It's a, it's a, I don't know if I can call it a parallel procedure, but then, the obstacles, if you want, and the layers of difficulty that the states, Not invent, but create or, or bring on, it's pretty similar, I would say.
Ellie: During our volunteering time in Athens, we had the opportunity to meet some of the lawyers who work for the Greek Council of Refugees. So could you tell us about some of the legal cases that they typically cover?
Lefteris: Oh, I think that the biggest number of cases concerns classic asylum cases, you know, applying and then passing the procedure.
Uh, and then of course we have, um, I, I don't want to, maybe the word is bad, it is, is wrongly used, but more important cases in front of the European [00:19:00] court. So strategic litigation, if you want, if we can call it that, uh, and a lot of entering measures to the European court also in order to protect people who enter the territory illegally, meaning without documents.
Because, as you know, many people found themselves in the borders, especially in the land borders of Evros. Or, they come to an island, and we send in the request for inter-emergency in order to protect them. So the court orders the Greek authorities to take care of them, allow them to access asylum, feed them, give them housing, etc.
Hosted them, basically, not housing, but put them in a camp. Or take all the necessary measures in order to protect them. So the big bug, I would say it's asylum and protecting people from, uh, while they enter into the EU in the numbers. I mean, and then you have very specific cases. I mean, we have a case in some cases of people who were, [00:20:00] uh, of course, denied asylum.
And then we move on to asylum. You know, and we're continuing the procedure and also people who saw their asylum revolt for national security reasons, for example, and we defend them also in order to keep their asylum going, their status valid, etc. So this is a big bulk, I would say, of cases. This is every day.
Of course, we have family reunification cases. We have victims of torture, GBV, etc, etc. So it's, it's a variety if you want. cases, but the number of the big number of cases concerning asylum in general.
Ellie: Thank you. It's interesting to hear the kind of wide range of legal cases that the council deals with. Um, and as I mentioned in the interview, a lot of our listeners are still in that kind of training stage.
And. We believe quite a large majority are interested in, uh, well, particularly working in law, but have an interest in human rights, refugee law. What would be your advice for listeners [00:21:00] who aspire to either work with NGOs or law firms that specialize in refugee law?
Lefteris: I would say that they have to be prepared, um, you know, and willing and able to, to take a fight, you know, and, and pick a fight with, with the authorities, because it's, as I mentioned, a very complicated, Procedure and of course, you have to keep in mind that it's during the procedures are very different depending on the country that you find yourself in working or applying.
I mean, You know that, unfortunately, there is no unified asylum system. So it depends on the country that you work, how the system is set up. So my advice is to be ready for long procedures. Maybe, depending on the country again, I'm not talking about the UK. Not even Greece. I would say we're getting there, unfortunately, but we are not there yet.
So being targeted by authorities having to deal with complicated and complex procedures, [00:22:00] hostile authorities and institutions. Yeah. And how are they? Because not all cases go well. And because it's a very, there is a big, there's a lot of sentiment put in these procedures because you represent people who look for a better future and come from usually the large majority of cases from face very badly realities where they come from.
And they are very, very hopeful and you need to manage also their expectations. So you are not only a lawyer, but you are also sometimes some kind of, a psychologist if you will, also you do a lot of management of, of, of, of expectation of feelings of hopes. So it's, it's a very complicated and hard job to do.
It's very fulfilling and it's very rewarding. I would say also in the same context. So yeah, there is a lot of [00:23:00] commitment to be, to be, you know, you have to have a lot of commitment when you do this type of work, um, at the same time, because as I mentioned, it's a very politicised and very political issue.
You have to have some political instinct. And yeah, in the end, you take a political stand by doing people who work in this context, asylum, representing migrants, asylum seekers. Refugees working in the NGO world, etc. They take a political stand, whatever we do every day in our everyday life. And I think I mentioned that when we met, it's it's a political act.
So you take a stand and you have to be able to defend it. It's not easy. I'm not saying that it's for everyone, but it's very interesting. It's very engaging. And it's very challenging, I would say.
Ellie: Thank you. I think that's a really great insight into a very emotive and, uh, at times, incredibly [00:24:00] challenging job. Thank you very much for agreeing to be interviewed.
Lefteris: thank you. for having me.
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