Season 4, Episode 7: Robert Ingalls: CEO of LawPods

Our Episode Transcripts are produced by Descript. Some words/dialogue may not be transcribed with 100% accuracy.

[00:00:00] Ellie: In this episode of Law Talks, I'm joined by Robert Ingalls, CEO of the podcast Law Pods. Robert transitioned from working as an attorney to running and hosting the hugely successful Law Pods, a marketing podcast that services some of the biggest brands in law

[00:00:15] Ellie: Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's lovely to have you on the show. 

[00:00:19] Robert: It is my pleasure. I've listened to a few of your episodes and I really enjoyed some of the subject matter you've been talking about and just the energy that you're bringing to it. You are clearly excited about this and you enjoy it and you're taking your time to do it.

[00:00:32] Robert: And that's kind of how all this started for me was discovering podcasting and being like, this is so neat. I want to do more of this. So I understand it. 

[00:00:39] Ellie: No, thanks so much. Yeah, exactly. It's been wonderful doing the podcast for the last four seasons. And yeah, hopefully plenty more to come And yeah, so to start us off kind of a question we ask all our guests is yeah Can you tell us about your career trajectory to date?

[00:00:54] Robert: Oh my, how much time do you have? I went to law school a little later in [00:01:00] life just because I people will frequently Use the words old soul. I am not one of those. This is very much my first rodeo. That's probably a very american reference but I just I had a lot of trouble to get into and it took me I think I did six Years of undergrad over over a nine year period So I I enjoyed myself and I graduated law school at Ten And I really ended up there because it was a mixture of not really knowing what else to do.

[00:01:40] Robert: But also from a young age, I, I grew up in a rural community, blue collar my mother didn't graduate high school, my father did and went directly to a factory they had five kids, and we grew up just with humble means, and the idea of being a lawyer in a [00:02:00] community like that was, wow, like that was prestigious.

[00:02:04] Robert: So as that, as I went to school and did, you know, when I was there, I did reasonably well, and I didn't find it that difficult. And so when law school kind of emerged as an actual possibility for me, I thought, well, That is something I should do like that, that it's prestigious, like I'll earn respect and whatever.

[00:02:28] Robert: And then I got there and I was like, Oh no, I made a huge mistake. It, it just, it was not glamorous. It was really hard. I didn't go to a top tier school and still everybody around you is pretty brilliant. And then you're on a curve, so it's not like you can kind of do pretty well and get by easily.

[00:02:51] Robert: No, you really gotta work. And I didn't like that at all. And so I made it through begrudgingly, barely, and [00:03:00] learned almost everything in law during bar study. I mean, every day. I just had this epiphany like, oh my gosh, it would have been great to know all of this when I was actually in law school. I would have done so much better had I known how to do that analysis.

[00:03:15] Robert: But I got out, I started practicing criminal law, and it didn't take long to realise I'm not the best fit here. I am, I bring my whole self everywhere I go. Like, I don't have these compartmentalised features that you hear about. Like, you have to leave that at work. You don't have that. And it turns out I don't want to have it.

[00:03:36] Robert: You know, that took a lot of figuring out and talking through to realize like, Oh, I don't actually want to become the person. That I would need to become for it to be a good fit. Right. But it took a heavy toll on me and criminal defense was something, I think I made it almost three years before just the weight of the things that I was tasked with doing became a little more than I wanted [00:04:00] to bear the kinds of people.

[00:04:02] Robert: And, and, and I know everybody comes from their own walk of life. They find themselves where they find themselves just based on a lot of factors that are outside their control. So I'm not trying to catch judgment on people. But it was hard for me to be the champion of some of these people especially when there was a victim, a real victim, not a corporation like a real victim with scars.

[00:04:28] Robert: And I had to stand over here, a man with four sisters. Had to stand here and, and paint this person as you know, kinda undermine their credibility, especially when I really didn't believe it. And, and so I just felt like the bad guy in somebody's movie. And I don't like it. I don't wanna be the bad guy.

[00:04:45] Robert: I wanna be the guy that people, I wanna be the guy. When people walk in the room, they're like, this guy's here. Our day is better. Like, that's who I wanna be. I wanna bring joy to the people around me. I wanna have fun. And that is not how I felt. So that was, that was the beginning. I [00:05:00] mean, it took quite a few more years for me to finally go, I can't do this at all.

[00:05:06] Robert: But, that started to be where I took a tiny step back. and said, what else can I do? And I hadn't even ventured to think it could be outside the confines of the law yet.

[00:05:19] Robert: And from there over a period of years, I tried some different things. I got into general civil litigation and I enjoy trial immensely.

[00:05:27] Robert: It's the only thing I miss. I certainly don't miss any of the business development to get to, you know, to get the clients and, you know, recruiting conflict essentially is what it felt like. And then working up the file and the discovery process and dealing. with the kind of people who find themselves in law.

[00:05:46] Robert: We all know who we're talking about here. And that, that took a big toll on me, but I did really enjoy just sitting down and going to work in trial like that. That's a hell of a thing. So I miss that, but it's really, like I said, it's [00:06:00] the only thing that I do miss. And it all really came to a head when I got married and I'm on my honeymoon and we're, we're in Colorado.

[00:06:12] Robert: And we're really enjoying ourselves. And I'm not in the, I am not in the frame of mind where I should be dealing with anything from work. Say that. And I start getting a lot of messages from my paralegal. And I'm seeing voicemails and something's going sideways in a family law case that I should have never taken.

[00:06:31] Robert: It was supposed to be very easy. Very easy. Just contracts. Gonna be real simple. Not contentious. And now there's domestic violence and children involved and all this is going sideways and they want to talk to me. And I'm not talking to anybody in that moment. And that was several days. After that, I'm trying to enjoy myself in what should be a really relaxing, fun time in my life.

[00:06:57] Robert: And it was, they were, it was being [00:07:00] poisoned by this stress, which I was already, my baseline level of stress. I didn't really understand it at the time. My baseline level of stress was so high. And then this was on top of it. And then, not long after we get home, my wife says, I think we should start trying to have a baby like right now.

[00:07:17] Robert: And we had thought maybe we will at some point. And then she just was, I mean, she's right. We were not spring chickens. But that is what pushed me over the edge was like, now I'm going to have to be responsible for another person. And that was what made me. I have a little bit of a mini freak out, mostly unbeknownst to her, I think.

[00:07:36] Robert: And I sat down and I made a list of things that I had to get together. You know, after a period of trying to get it back together. And at the top of that list was money because I was working my ass off and I didn't have a lot of show for it. I hadn't figured out how to make a profit at the end of the month.

[00:07:54] Robert: And I read a money book and that author had a podcast. I'd never listened to a podcast. This is like September [00:08:00] of 15. And I listened to that podcast. It wasn't necessarily for me. And then one of the recommendations from, you know, if you listen to this, you might like this was a show called awesome office and Tom Bilyeu founder of quest nutrition, like billion dollar protein brand was the first guest and he's talking about mindset and I've never.

[00:08:23] Robert: Encountered this concept and, you know, to boil down the takeaway from like an hour of them talking, which blew my mind was, you can do anything you want with your life. Now that sounds super trite. We've all been told that a million times, but this guy was telling me and everything he said through that episode, it mirrored the experience I felt like I was having, like he was, he felt like he'd been living his life in the furtherance of some goal that really wasn't his.

[00:08:52] Robert: There's, you know, chasing this version of success that belongs to other people and not [00:09:00] really taking a moment to figure out who you are, what you want to do, what you like to do, where your skills and curiosities come together. What's that? And I had never really done that analysis. It didn't seem like something that, you know, You got to do like things like that are things you do in your spare time.

[00:09:21] Robert: You go to work and work sucks and you make money and that's just how it is. And then you use that money to try to make life outside work that doesn't suck enough to make the work that sucks not so bad. Right. And this guy's telling me maybe it doesn't have to be like that. And I mean, I'd love to tell you in that moment, everything changed and my life got so much better.

[00:09:41] Robert: It didn't, but it set me on a new trajectory. It helped me understand the concept of mindset and my ability to think about what I want to do and the way that I choose to perceive the world. If, if, if anybody hasn't read the book mindset by Carol [00:10:00] Dweck. I mean, that book is life changing for anybody who struggles with some of the same problems that I was struggling with as far as the way you, the way your mindset operates, like a very fixed idea of who you are.

[00:10:12] Robert: And but from there I took, I just went face first into the idea of personal development that I had never given any oxygen to before. And because I was very fixed, I had this idea that, oh, this is all hooey. And within 30 days of listening to that podcast, I bought a thousand dollars worth of gear. Like the microphone I'm talking into, I bought right after listening to that.

[00:10:36] Robert: Which I feel like says a lot about my personality. Go big or go home. And I just started tinkering in my law office at night, in my spare bedroom. And I loved it. I, one of my colleagues would come and we'd play and we learned how to use the mixer. It was so much harder. To make a podcast just nine years ago than it is now, like USB mic right in, just all these different [00:11:00] software makes it so easy.

[00:11:02] Robert: So it was a little harder back then, but it was so fun. It was like this hobby. And I just, I loved it so much and I started, I ended up starting a podcast at my law firm and then over a period of a couple of years, I was just so into it. Everybody around me could see it and a lawyer in town, a notable attorney in town who I would have loved to have offered me a job back then, just like working for him.

[00:11:28] Robert: And he asked me, he's like, I see you're doing that podcast stuff. He's like, you think you could help me? I was like, I would love to help you. And he was like, we'll come by tomorrow. I mean, it's the best client ever. And he gave me the space to try it, to help him make some mistakes, figure it out, you know, those first clients.

[00:11:48] Robert: And I thought, I think I can, I think I might, there might be something here. I didn't know if I was going to go all in with it, but I think there might be something here. And it was a rough few years, like making that [00:12:00] transition, especially when I decided, okay, law has got to go. I can't do it. My mental health.

[00:12:03] Robert: Like more, just troubling things were happening in law and it was really getting heavy on me and the transition out was hard. That baby that we were talking about: It came alive and it was expensive and stressful and the money was really tight as I was trying to get out because I wasn't really making any money yet. And it was a real grind.

[00:12:23] Robert: My wife was so supportive. I don't I don't know how she did it like in hindsight but over a period of years by 2020, I was able to You I had in the meantime, I'd gotten a job at a bank in their compliance department. And after two years there, I was able to quit March 2nd, 2020, scary timing in hindsight, but it worked out.

[00:12:46] Ellie: I mean, that was so interesting to, to hear this kind of change and also you have to kind of have the courage to, to make that change and obviously it's been hugely successful.

[00:12:56] Robert: it's courage, but it's also just the fear, the [00:13:00] fear of failure.

[00:13:01] Robert: of staying the same and ending up 40 years down the road and never taking your shot, that I have people that I know personally in my life that lived that and that, that fear was motivating. It's like, I, I don't know what, I don't know what's going to happen, but I feel like I have to take my shot. 

[00:13:23] Ellie: No, I think, I think that that's also kind of this perspective of you went to law school and you started working as an attorney.

[00:13:30] Ellie: It's really. helpful to hear. Obviously on our podcast a lot of our listeners are aspiring lawyers, but actually, I mean, with previous guests we've had on, no longer workers. I mean, a lot of them do, but a few of them have left the legal profession. And I think 

[00:13:45] Robert: a lot of us out there. 

[00:13:46] Ellie: Yeah, definitely. And I think I mean, particularly in the UK, you can kind of paint this idea of someone like who works as a lawyer, it's their kind of lifelong career.

[00:13:56] Ellie: There's no kind of flexibility or adaptability there. And I [00:14:00] think, I mean, I can also imagine that coming very, like strongly out of fashion now as, as things are different, but yeah, this idea that you have to kind of, If you're aspiring at 18 to become a lawyer, that's sort of it for you, I think is a kind of fairly horrifying idea and it's, it's lovely to have someone on the podcast who has really found their passion and in podcasting, which is really exciting.

[00:14:20] Robert: Yeah. And at 18, I can't speak for everybody, but I've seen it play out a lot and very much in my own life. I had no idea who I was at 18. I hadn't had enough experiences and enough reflection and. I hadn't chased enough curiosities. I didn't know who I was around that time, around the time I was graduating.

[00:14:41] Robert: There was this famous graduation speech. Is it Buzz, Buzz Lerman? I don't know. I'm probably butchering that. But he says something to the effect of like, most people at 18 don't know what they want to be when they grow up. He's like most, some of the most interesting people I know. didn't know what they wanted to be when they grew up.[00:15:00] 

[00:15:00] Robert: And like, I remember hearing that when I was 18 and like, it was kind of a nifty thing to hear, but then it like, for me, I, you know, this became my full time career when I was, I mean, what year was that? I was almost 38. when I really took this seriously, but I was about to turn 40 in March of 2020 when I just, this became like my all in.

[00:15:24] Robert: And so I think people at 18 think, well, that would be crazy to just be like, kind of going all in on your career when you're 22 years from now, but it's a. I don't know that, that here, thinking back on that phrase, I really enjoy that now. And I've met a lot of people in similar situations who at 18 chase this dream, chase this idea, chase somebody else's version of success, or even maybe their own version that they thought was their version at the time.

[00:15:52] Robert: And then through life, you just, I don't know, don't be nailed down. There's so much opportunity in [00:16:00] so many different areas. And yeah, there might be some pain. It, it might, your life might change a little bit when you're, when you go chasing a new area. So be careful with that. But at the same time, there's a lot of opportunity.

[00:16:12] Ellie: And I think that actually leads really nicely into what I wanted to ask you about next is you're talking, obviously you kind of launched your podcast in a time when you're kind When you first became interested, you're talking about being in 2015. So, you know, I completely agree. I can imagine it wasn't quite as simple as it can be now to launch podcasts, but yeah, could you tell us a bit about your experience of founding LawPods?

[00:16:34] Robert: Sure. It was like I, you know, to pick up where I was with my, my first client, the, it was a bit different there. The way you learned how to do that back then, there were far fewer people teaching it. And So finding that information, there were a handful of people who were really doing it. There was Cliff Ravenscraft.

[00:16:56] Robert: He was, he, he, his brand's probably still out there with a podcast [00:17:00] answer, man. Like so many people who went on to have big podcasts back then John Lee Dumas, entrepreneurs on fire. That was just one of the biggest podcasts. For in the entrepreneur space probably still is to learn from Cliff Ravenscraft and then he had his own course teaching people how to do it.

[00:17:16] Robert: And I learned from both of them and then started going to conferences in 2017 and actually won tickets to a conference in LA. In 2017 that I could not afford to go to. And I figured out how to sell the second ticket. My wife had points stacked up that we use for the airline ticket. So I was able to sell the second ticket, get an Airbnb on some guy's couch and go to that conference for free, where I was able to meet both of those guys in person and talk to them and ended up like learning from them after that.

[00:17:46] Robert: And that was a really nifty experience and solidified to me that I think there's something here. Like, I don't think at that time, there was still a lot of talk. about podcasting being like, Oh, it's new radio. It's like vinyl. It's coming back [00:18:00] for a second, but it's you know, how, how can this stay?

[00:18:02] Robert: We've got so many like VR is on the way and there's so many cool new things. Why would we go back to listening to things? And listening had been so impactful for me. And, I mean, this sounds silly in hindsight here in 2024, but at the time people really did believe that. And, but for me, I was walking around, like I was leaving work and going to lunch.

[00:18:26] Robert: Listening to a podcast or an audio book, exercising, you know, at the gym, driving. Everything I did that didn't require full attention. I had something going. I was learning something and I just felt like that's not going to go away. People value their time. I think more now than ever. And the ability to get like giving someone that ability to consume your content on their own terms without having to sacrifice.

[00:18:57] Robert: Essentially, you're selling them [00:19:00] time with audio. You're not saying, stop what you're doing and read this. Hold on, you need to pull the car over if you want to watch this video, right? You're saying, go do whatever you're doing, I'm going to come with you. And I felt like that was so powerful that until they're beaming things into our brains, I don't know that there's a better way to get information in your downtime.

[00:19:20] Robert: And so I really believed in it. And as I was watching it happen, and I'm out there pushing and hustling, and just hobbying, really. Like, this is the kind of thing that even, I wasn't making almost any money, I would have still done it for no money. Because I thought it was worthwhile. I loved it. And as it grew, you know, I got my next class.

[00:19:42] Robert: I was teaching a podcast class at a co-working space, just because I really wanted to do it. And one of my students was a lawyer. That was my second client, because she said, at the end of the class, she said, You've taught me everything I need to know to do this. You've also taught me, I could never, like, there's no chance I'm going to try to do this by [00:20:00] myself and also be a lawyer.

[00:20:01] Robert: But that really struck me too. Because that was one of the, that was an early thought for my market position, because you always want to have your value prop, like, who am I, what makes me different? And that was all very messy for me back then. I didn't even know how to sell the product really. And that became one of our core tenants. There is less time if you want this marketing capability, but you don't have the time.

[00:20:31] Robert: To do all these, you don't have the time to learn about this, to figure out the technology. You have the time to sit down and talk. And that was where we started thinking we do the rest. And so that was really valuable to me was her going, okay, I know she knew how to do it. So I think people are always worried.

[00:20:47] Robert: Don't teach him too much. Don't teach him too much because then they'll do it themselves. And I tell people, do you want the kind of client that would do it themselves even if they had all the information? No, generally not. So that helped me a little with my [00:21:00] positioning and understanding, but it was still really slow.

[00:21:02] Robert: That's why I had to get that full time job. I had to pay for that baby. And, but over a couple of years, client here, client there, but it was such a hustle. Most people just truly believe they didn't need what I was selling, but I also hadn't learned exactly why they needed it. I was still trying to figure that kind of messy stuff out.

[00:21:20] Robert: And then I got into about half of income replacement in March of 2020, but the job, I was getting busy enough that my full time job was starting to suffer. They were starting to notice and something was going to give somewhere. So I just kind of had to pull the rip cord. And, but COVID year ended up being a pretty tragic for the world, but pretty great for a lot of online marketing businesses because everybody was at home.

[00:21:45] Robert: Everybody had a lot of extra budget from in person events that they were used to doing. And podcasting was having its moment in the sun. And there weren't, there wasn't a ton of vendors out there that were doing it and doing it. [00:22:00] Well, a lot of people were coming to the marketplace. But they were just cobbling together the best things they could figure out online.

[00:22:06] Robert: Like, how do I make a podcast? Where do I put it? How do I get it on Apple? Like, they didn't know all these questions all that well. And we'd been doing it for years at that point. And so, because it was such a hobby, I was up at night reading this stuff just because I was curious. So, I was ready. I was ready to, to jump on these clients as they showed up and create a really good product for them.

[00:22:27] Robert: And so, 2020 was a year that really helped us. And since then, we've been doubling. Every year. Now, this year we are on track to double, but it's doubling gets harder and harder every single year, . But it's, it's a hell of a goal to have and it's a really amazing problem to have too. And now we work for we work for firms in the top 10 largest in the world.

[00:22:48] Robert: Multiple shows across these firms. And that blows my mind. These are firms that would have shredded my resume, wouldn't have looked at it if I would have tried to apply there as a [00:23:00] lawyer. Like I'm just not, I'm not a thoroughbred that, that they're looking for. And there was something that I saw your mission inspire, there it is, inspire, educate, and empower those who may not have direct access.

[00:23:13] Robert: To industry connections. And I love that because that is 1000 percent me. Like I didn't, I didn't have any connections. I didn't know how to make any of them. And, and through podcasting, I built those connections. I know the CMOs personally of the top 100 firms in the world. I know multiples of them, and we have a good relationship with each other, and that's crazy to me.

[00:23:38] Robert: Like I came in through this complete other door to start making some of these connections in my own way. And it's, it's been the coolest thing. I have infinite gratitude for the things I like. I get to come here and sit in this cockpit with all my screens and my mixers and my toys and my lights.

[00:23:53] Robert: And, and it's just, it's mind blowing that I got to build this. Now it's been hard and it [00:24:00] continues to be hard. You know, every day it's every day I'm running the biggest company I've ever run before. And and I don't know what the hell I'm doing, which for my personality type is kind of fun because I'm solving problems, but it's it's, it's, It's got its own stress.

[00:24:13] Ellie: I can hear your, your passion for what you do as in your answers. And it's really great to hear it and I'm glad that you you enjoy our mission and I completely agree. I think COVID was such an interesting time for podcasts and a lot of people, I think who never listened to them before, suddenly were increasingly getting engaged engaging with them and, Absolutely right.

[00:24:31] Ellie: That's something that can just really easily slot into people's days. And yeah, and hearing about this very impressive trajectory of law courts and, and how it's just continued to develop. And I'm kind of curious with your previous, how your career was previously as an attorney. Do you feel that the skills that you had as an attorney really helped to like, were they transferable skills for a podcasting you were learning a completely new skill set while also kind of founding this podcast?

[00:24:58] Robert: They were a thousand percent [00:25:00] transferable. It's I, People frequently, and I understand why they ask, they ask don't you feel like you wasted all that time and money? I mean, do I wish it was less expensive? Yes. If I could go back to school, I would go somewhere less expensive. I would also try to keep some of that scholarship money by making better grades.

[00:25:16] Robert: Because that was my decision to lose that scholarship. But it was, I, I think that the skills that we learn in law school need to start a hell of a lot earlier, a hell of a lot earlier. I work with my children. My oldest is seven and I'm, you know, I'm not, it's very gentle. I'm not up there, you know, Socratic methoding her, but, but, but essentially I don't want, I want them to, I love the idea of thinking like a lawyer.

[00:25:44] Robert: That is one of the best things that ever happened to me was being taught to think like a lawyer. It changed my belief system in some pretty fundamental ways. I went, my, my political [00:26:00] affiliation, well, affiliation is the wrong word. The way I feel about politics shifted because law, law school said you have to go from A to B to C.

[00:26:12] Robert: You know, you don't, you don't get to start with this is what I think and then go to immediately to your conclusion. I think this, so this is the truth. No, you have to stop and analyze it. And anything that doesn't withstand that scrutiny, you don't get to think that anymore. And, I mean, just so many of my beliefs crumbled under that analysis, and that can be really hard for some people, especially when you've been holding these for so long and they're such a core part of your identity.

[00:26:40] Robert: And it was hard for me, but it also, once you get through that process, and you start to see who you really are and what you really believe. It's so beautiful to, to then face the world kind of fresh. And so I love that, that thinking, that analyzing, [00:27:00] analyze everything. And, and I don't get paralysis by analysis anymore, but anytime even the smallest decision comes up, I just, I do that snap analysis.

[00:27:09] Robert: instead of like snap judgments, more of a snap analysis, bam, bam, bam. And that is, that's so effective for me, my personal relationships and in my business, it's so effective in my business. And the, the skills you learn in law school as well of Negotiations class. Everyone tells kids when they're young that likes to argue, oh you should be a lawyer.

[00:27:33] Robert: Stop telling kids that. It's the worst thing. Because A, that's not really what law is or at least it's definitely not what law should be. Negotiations was so impactful because it's not about just Exerting your will aggressively on another person. It's understanding. It's understanding who they are and what they need.

[00:27:52] Robert: What does that person need to make them feel like they got what they wanted? And, and what do I need? And all of [00:28:00] these different factors go into trying to find a resolution. And that I mean negotiations class was every day. I'm using the things I learned in there to get what I want, but also in a way that makes the people I'm working with, whether it be my employees or other vendors or clients, I want everyone to walk away feeling good.

[00:28:20] Robert: You know, I, I heard this, I think in the movie rounders, you can shear a sheep many times. You can skin it only once. So if you're going around in deals, you might get a really good deal and skin that sheep. That vendor's probably done with you, right? And, and that's a terrible way to behave. I mean, for me at least, A, I want long term success, but B, I want people to like me.

[00:28:40] Robert: I just do. I don't want people out there being like, that guy's an asshole. It's not who I want to be. And so many of those skills have come over. And then just the fact that I'm a lawyer, I speak the language. These are my clients. I chose lawyers very specifically. And I got a couple of my friends that were lawyers.

[00:28:59] Robert: [00:29:00] They're like, lawyers are never going to go for this. And that's not, I'm not saying that to throw them under the bus in any way. I understand why they thought that. And most entrepreneurship starts like successful entrepreneurship starts with an idea that's counter to the common belief, because that's where you're able to find that niche.

[00:29:18] Robert: And that's why it's dangerous. Because you could be very well could be wrong. You're more than likely going to be wrong. , but when you're right and when you stick it out and it does work, it can be very beneficial. And so I understand why that was the thought process. But having been a lawyer and watch the way that lawyers operate.

[00:29:39] Robert: They, they've done it forever. I mean, let's start with, you know, we'll start late in the game, but let's start with websites. Websites were getting really popular in the late 90s, early 2000s, and so many lawyers just, that's not the kind of firm we are. We don't need a website. That's not how we do business.

[00:29:57] Robert: Nobody says that anymore. [00:30:00] Nobody. It's, it would be crazy to say that. That's like not having a place for people to come find you. You know, let's, 50 years ago, that's like not having a storefront. That's like not being able to get found on the street so someone could come tell you about their case. And or, you know, not having a phone number where somebody could contact you.

[00:30:18] Robert: It's a crazy idea. And then social media was the same, you know, blogging, social media. We don't need that. That's not how we get business. But there's one thing that is common across all of those stories. They always show up. They show up late. They always show up. And then once they show up, And it's established, they show up big.

[00:30:38] Robert: And that's what we're seeing now. That's the moment we're in now. Where they're starting to see, and we're still early. Like we really are. People say, oh, it's already happening. Yeah, but I'm in the industry. I'm watching it. Most firms still don't believe in it. It's still not how they see it. Who would listen to a law podcast?

[00:30:55] Robert: You know, there's a lot of, it's not how we do things yet, which is [00:31:00] great for a firm like mine that's already, you know, caught the wave and doing well, that I truly believe we're still at the beginning of it is fantastic news.

[00:31:09] Ellie: I think, I mean, from what I'm seeing also in the UK, that's, that's true chambers and starting to pick up having either their own podcasts or they're starting to advertise more on their, on their websites, which they now all do have. And yeah, that's been interesting and I suppose it links well, but um, if, if you Because you'd mentioned 

[00:31:25] Ellie: uh, 

[00:31:26] Ellie: like LawTalk's mission. Could you summarize what you vision like LawPod's mission to be? 

[00:31:32] Robert: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're trying to help clients create more compelling content that's going to lead to increased conversions with, by minimize, and by minimizing the amount of time attorneys have to spend on the content.

[00:31:47] Robert: Like, that really is it in a nutshell. We're trying to help them create massive amounts of, of engaging content that their listeners, that their prospects are going to appreciate, that's going to help them know, like, and trust that [00:32:00] attorney more to pick up the phone. Cause that's what we want. We want them picking up the phone, getting in contact with us and feeling like they already know us and getting all of that without asking the attorney to spend more time.

[00:32:13] Robert: We actually want the attorney spending less time on marketing. That's our job. When we come in and we work with you, we want you to look at your last 12 months and go, I spent less time marketing and I got more out of it. 

[00:32:24] Ellie: Yeah. I can completely see how podcasting is such a platform particularly wanting clients to feel this like personalised relationship.

]

[00:32:30] Ellie: You know, you're hearing people almost in like a conversational manner talking. It can really help to connect with listeners. So yeah, I can very much, I can very much see the aim of the podcast. I mean, a question linked to that, but relatively broad as well, you've, you know, talked about your career.

[00:32:45] Ellie: You've talked about the kind of boom in podcasting and how you were kind of early onto that scene and, and the difficulties with that. So kind of looking at it now, and most of our listeners are really as I said before, quite young. What advice would, would you give to anyone sort of hoping to [00:33:00] work in, I mean, Podcasting with maybe a slight focus on sort of legal area podcasting.

[00:33:07] Robert: the are we talking like somebody who's considering going to law school? 

[00:33:11] Ellie: Yeah, I think, or I mean, some kids, because in the UK you do it as an undergrad and maybe someone who's like kind of at, yeah, at law school. 

[00:33:19] Robert: Got that. I mean, I, I think if it didn't come across earlier, I think that the, you know, legal training is incredible.

[00:33:28] Robert: It's it's something I think we should take a lot and we should be inserting it earlier into people's lives but at the same time I don't know the exact path you take in the in how deep the commitment has to be the commitment to go to law school In the united states is pretty aggressive and it's getting more expensive every day And so I tell people on that side, you know be thoughtful about it understand, you know Think about the financial implications of it And the time and is that really what you want to do?

[00:33:51] Robert: Are you doing it for the right reasons? But I don't want to stop anybody from pursuing it because some people just feel like that's my dream You Go for it. I mean, you know, what do you have to lose? Yeah, you might lose some [00:34:00] money, you might lose some time, but I don't think you're losing them. There's going to be experiences you're going to have.

[00:34:05] Robert: You're going to meet people. I'm not sitting here without law school. All of those connections that I made and things that I learned, I was able to then get in the room with lawyers and speak their language, and they understood me. I understood them when they were speaking to me. Like, we spoke that same language.

[00:34:21] Robert: We had a shared experience. We knew how shitty having to stand up when you haven't read And be just in the teacher doesn't let you off the hook. They just keep you standing for 30 minutes and they bash you over the head. We've had that shared experience and that helped me relate a lot better to those other, you know, to, to my prospects and clients.

[00:34:39] Robert: And that has been incredible. So, you know, I never want to tell somebody not to chase the thing, just. Take the next, you know, do the next thing, you know, what Frozen 2, we watch a lot of that, do the next right thing, just take the step, because there's going to be a lot of advice that people more qualified in the legal field are going to have, but I don't think as many are going to just say, doesn't really matter.

[00:34:58] Robert: Just move [00:35:00] forward. Like that is the, that's the lesson I want to give people is it's all, it's all part of the human experience. Just do the thing. 

[00:35:09] Ellie: Yeah, no, thank you very much. I think that's that's very helpful advice because we, I mean, we can come to law school slightly earlier, I think, than the U. S., but then you have to then go on to like further training and like, it requires more than just like one degree. So it is definitely. a commitment as you were you were talking about in at the start of your answer. And I suppose the other side of this and and works well is for those who are we podcast people reaching out, wanting to get involved like in law talks or just curious about podcasting.

[00:35:38] Ellie: And If people are, you know, if people are kind of maybe hoping, whether it's sort of a side hustle or want something they want to like further expand into would you give like the sort of same advice to maybe aspiring podcasters or if anything that you'd, you'd add onto that?

[00:35:53] Robert: Yeah. I mean, start that podcast.

[00:35:55] Robert: It's a, I love it. I mean, you've been there, you have had the idea, you were sitting [00:36:00] around and you said, it'd be really cool if we had a podcast, right? You know, you've heard that. But you did it. You didn't just say it'd be really cool. You sat down and you mapped out some ideas. You thought about some episodes.

[00:36:10] Robert: You said maybe these guests would be good to get and you started it. And then something went wrong and you pivoted and you changed something and you went here and you learned something new and you tried something else. And we've never talked about this, but I bet 95 percent of what I just said is exactly what happened, because that's how it works.

[00:36:29] Robert: That's how everything works. You just go back what I was saying. You just start the thing. And, and then see what happens. Now that doesn't mean don't have a plan, that's why in the beginning I said you sat down and you made the plan. Because you need to understand a few things when you're gonna be making a podcast.

[00:36:44] Robert: Because too many people go, We have really funny conversations when we drink, we should record that. Yeah, I hear ya. And I'm sure it'll be funny and you should record it and then you'll have that for posterity and you can listen to it and it'll be silly. But it's gonna be really hard to get other people to listen to that.[00:37:00] 

[00:37:00] Robert: The, the moment where that was a, a pretty viable option came and went. Now that's not to say, if you're really funny, That that won't work, but it's going to be a lot of work to get your listeners. It's going to be a lot of work to build your listener base because you're competing with Bert Kreischer, Tom Segura, every other comedian in the world.

[00:37:19] Robert: You're competing with Joe Rogan, who has probably still the number one podcast on the planet. You're competing with a lot of people who are funny professionals forever. Like that's just, that's their job. And if you're that good, then it's going to work. It's still going to be a long road. And. But when you're trying to start something that maybe isn't just silliness, you really need to be thinking, and even if you are, you still need to be thinking, who is this for?

[00:37:46] Robert: Like, why am I doing this? What do I hope to ultimately get out of this? Well, I want a bunch of people to listen. Why? Why do you want them to listen? What's the end goal? Just, you'll make some money? I mean, that's a, that's tough. Like, why do you want [00:38:00] to make that money? Like, what's the purpose? So I'll have a lot of money, and I'll be happy.

[00:38:04] Robert: Yeah, I mean, we don't have time on this podcast for that, but yeah. Your why needs to be much bigger. And and fleshed out than that, but, you know, coming back to the podcast, it really does matter. Why am I doing it? What am I going to be talking about? Who is going to be listening? Who is that avatar that would be listening to this podcast?

[00:38:25] Robert: Because that matters. What does that person want to know? Because if I'm making content that is 40 percent of the time for my avatar, it means every four episodes, Of 10 that I make are very, they love them. They're like, Oh, this is exactly what I want. This is my podcast. But the other six, yeah, it's going to be real hard to get that person to come back.

[00:38:48] Robert: Your podcast needs to be for your avatar every time. Now, if you have a hugely successful podcast, there's some wiggle room there. I mean, I think Joe Rogan's a really good example. He's easy. Cause he's big [00:39:00] podcast is he's got stuff where he's interviewing some of the most brilliant people on the planet, scientists, professors people who know really interesting things.

[00:39:11] Robert: And that has mass appeal. And then he talks about, he has episodes where he talks about MMA. There, some of those people that listen to one episode, don't listen to those. They do not want to listen to those, but Rogan's kind of smart with the way he does it, he labels them so you can see them in the feed.

[00:39:26] Robert: Okay. These are regular episodes. These are the episodes that are for the MMA people. And, but I don't necessarily recommend that when you're just getting started, you really want to like, you want to go up and if you, then you, if you need to go out, then you can go out a little bit, but in the beginning, your podcast needs to be for a person.

[00:39:44] Robert: When I go to your website, I know who your podcast is for you. It's very clear on your website who should be listening, who it, who should be listening, what they're likely to get from this. That is so important because when people are, that, that's how we get them to show up to start with. And then by [00:40:00] consistently creating content that speaks directly to the pain points that person's having.

[00:40:04] Robert: And when I say pain point, it could be an actual pain point, a problem that they want to solve. But sometimes the pain point is boredom. If you're making a podcast that might be scratching that specific itch, but you need to understand why they're going to show up and needs to deliver on that. And then when times start to get hard, maybe, maybe you're running out, like you don't know exactly what decision to make with your podcast.

[00:40:26] Robert: That's where you, I tell people, stop, who's the avatar. Have you written down exactly who your avatar is? What, you know, how old are they? What kind of car do they drive? How long is their commute? What kind of job do they do? How do they see themselves? Whatever. You want to know who your avatar is really well.

[00:40:42] Robert: And then when you're considering making a decision, I would then think, what would my avatar want me to do? What would be valuable to Susan? Whoever. And that can make decision making a lot easier because we have a very clearly defined audience. And it's not just for everyone [00:41:00] because. If it's for everyone, it's going to end up being for no one.

[00:41:03] Robert: It's usually how that ends up being. And, and so understanding why you're making the content, I think it's so much more important than choosing the right platform to record on or choosing the right microphone, all of those things can matter in time. But if you look at some of the most successful podcasts on the planet, their mics were trash.

[00:41:22] Robert: I mean, there's pictures. I mean, Rogan, I just keep coming back cause he's an example. Everybody knows sitting with three people around a table with like one blue Yeti mic in the middle. Like I can't imagine how terrible the audio on that podcast was. People listen to it. And, and so it's that first part of knowing why you're doing it and who you're doing it for and creating content for that person that they want to hear.

[00:41:45] Robert: And then are you uniquely qualified to be the person? And now that, I don't say overanalyze that and think, Oh, who am I? That's not what I mean. But sometimes people will find themselves talking about things that really aren't their thing. They're kind of repeating what they've [00:42:00] heard other people say. and repackaging it.

[00:42:03] Robert: And I, I'm, I'm a much bigger fan of here's something I really enjoy, something I'm knowledgeable about. And you don't have to be the biggest expert in the world, but you are qualified to be the person doing that. And, and then when you have all of that in alignment and, and you're willing to put in the time and effort that it takes, because it always takes longer than you think.

[00:42:26] Robert: That's something I've heard from Forever. And it continues to be true in my life and, and you're willing to outlast other people and do the work and, and pivot and grow as you need to, then I think you have a, quite the recipe for success. 

[00:42:40] Ellie: Thank you very much. I think that was, I mean, incredibly comprehensive and I completely agree

.

[00:42:44] Ellie: They're like the, the first and really most important. Focus for the whole podcast being this idea of the amateur who you direct to that. And yeah, I think that will be hugely beneficial to, to our listeners. So yeah, all that's left to say is thank you so much for coming on the podcast and it's been lovely [00:43:00] talking with you and great to meet you.

[00:43:02] 

Robert: Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure to be here.